Based on the info from the thread on the HHR SS automatic, this reduction in horsepower for first and second gears with the optional auto. transmission got me to thinking, has there ever been anything like it with any other car? Seems like GM is breaking ground with this one. I've heard of electronic speed governors, rev limiters, and the like. But never where the engine management computer robs output 15 HP for the first and second gears... then gives it back for third and fourth.

To your knowledge, has there ever been a car with anything quite like this?

http://www.chidesigners.com/hosting/HHR_SS_stats.jpg

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2008/Photo%20Library/Transmissions/2008%20Automatics/08_4T45_MN5_LoR.jpg

My SRT4 in stock form would limit boost in 1st gear to 10psi, then get full boost (15) in every other gear, so they may be limiting boost to control HP in 1st and 2nd as well

But why in just the automatic???:confused:

You would think the same would apply for the manual tranny.

Full boost and first gear could sure burn out a clutch in a hurry.

I was just reading about the new Caliber SRT4 and they do the same thing. Limit the power in 1st and 2nd gear and thats with a manual tranny.

You would think the same would apply for the manual tranny.

Full boost and first gear could sure burn out a clutch in a hurry.

That manual they are using is designed for the motor. The auto is the standard 4speed they are currently using. Hard driving will burn the clutch faster. Just ask and 3rd gen owners. :lol:

I really think they should offer a beefed up auto as an option, for those who don't want the reduced power. But that's prolly a pipe dream.

They should follow the good old saying: "If you're going to do something, do it right."

Even if this is a base, affordable car once you start to deal with SS versions it shouldn't be addressed as an affordable vehicle.

I'd pay a few extra bucks if GM spent a few extra bucks developing a more stout tranny for the SS version. Why be cheap and put in what's laying around and have that be the weak link of the vehicle?

I wounder who found that info out???? LOL

Just a thought......

reduction for 1st, 2nd and final drive could have been for emissions certification. I know they were experiencing some problems with that.

I think it`s for two reasons other than the trans,as usually the first gear in a trans is the strongest,you get a heavy load going with first right? The reasons for the power reduction are 1) to reduce the effect of torque steer to keep people out of trouble when they mash the gas and 2) to keep from being sued by people who get themselves into trouble when they mash the gas.

I have read of other cars,mostly exotics,they have some sort of horsepower reduction at lower speeds and gears to get the car moving before it all kicks in.

If that's the case, why isn't it reduced in the manual trans. also.

They should follow the good old saying: "If you're going to do something, do it right."

Even if this is a base, affordable car once you start to deal with SS versions it shouldn't be addressed as an affordable vehicle.

I'd pay a few extra bucks if GM spent a few extra bucks developing a more stout tranny for the SS version. Why be cheap and put in what's laying around and have that be the weak link of the vehicle?

RIGHT ON! :twothumbs:
Couldn't have said it better. Especially after what Lutz said about the HHR SS "goes like hell!" Well the stick will go like hell. The auto version? Well I guess you could say it goes like heck.

...The reasons for the power reduction are 1) to reduce the effect of torque steer to keep people out of trouble when they mash the gas and 2) to keep from being sued by people who get themselves into trouble when they mash the gas.

I have read of other cars,mostly exotics,they have some sort of horsepower reduction at lower speeds and gears to get the car moving before it all kicks in...

maybe. we're only talking 260 HP here though.
I think they know they're going to have to warranty this transmission for 5 years/100K miles and it prolly can't take the full monty over time.

nah gunna do it, wouldn't be prudent...
http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/tv_pix/nbc/saturday_night_live_episode_photos/dana_carvey/snl.jpg

I was just reading about the new Caliber SRT4 and they do the same thing. Limit the power in 1st and 2nd gear and thats with a manual tranny.

The Caliber is using a CVT transmission...IMHO it isn't an automatic, just a gear reducer with a reverse.

Clare

They should follow the good old saying: "If you're going to do something, do it right."

Even if this is a base, affordable car once you start to deal with SS versions it shouldn't be addressed as an affordable vehicle.

I'd pay a few extra bucks if GM spent a few extra bucks developing a more stout tranny for the SS version. Why be cheap and put in what's laying around and have that be the weak link of the vehicle?

Currently "what's available" and being used with the 2.0L Turbo is the 5L40 (a rear drive) made in Strasbourg, France and used in the Cadillac SRX, the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice GXP.
Currently the 4T45E 8THJ is being developed here in Windsor. The CNC equipment here is tops in the automotive industry. :thumb:


Clare

If that's the case, why isn't it reduced in the manual trans. also.

Disclaimer:: This is just my opinion.

Anyone that chooses a higher performance car and wants an Auto trans in said auto has no intetions of trying to get the full potential out of the car. And If you're driving your auto trans equipped 260 horse HHR around and smoke the tires at every light or lose traction when passing that is going to frustrate you (since most people would end up plowing into another automobile). Look at average age of buyers for the HHR and the way people are modifying them. Look at the responses to the performance threads. Most people in the age group of HHR owners want a "little more" performance without sacrifice to sound or drivability. If you don't know how to drive a manual trans then I personally don't feel that a performance automobile is the right choice for you.

As for people purchasing a performance car with a manual trans? Granted not many people that drive manual trans cars have much skill or finesse to get the most out of their car, they want a more performance oriented one. How many Corvettes are sold with manual trans VS auto? Now, how many Z06s are sold with an auto trans?

Maybe its trying to save the trans to reduce the amount of warranty claims on over agressive SS owners? Maybe its trying to save the lives of heavy footed people in the 40+ segement that really have no clue how to save a FWD car from loss of traction? Maybe even still its an attempt to get better launching and performance from an auto trans car that you can't normally get from a slushbox allowing the application of a floored gas pedal much sooner than usual? Maybe it has to do with the traction control system's ability to reduce power effectively if the tires spin?

Who knows? Who really cares? With a turbo car you can gain that measly 20-30 horses back with a decent exhaust and a slight increase in boost. Odds are most will be more than happy with what they get out of the HHR SS when it hits floors auto or not.

Again... this is JUST MY OPINION. (:2cents:) Thanks.

Disclaimer:: ...Anyone that chooses a higher performance car and wants an Auto trans in said auto has no intetions of trying to get the full potential out of the car...

Try telling that to all the guys who have installed high-stall torque converters in their automatics and take their muscle cars to the track every weekend. The argument for automatic for them is that they get more consistent ET's than a manual.

Right now I have 1998 Z28 with an M6 tranny that I've driven since new. Sometimes ppl get to an age (and drive in city traffic) where they get a little tired of shifting. That's where I am. I just want the car to have as much power as possible and was disappointed to hear that the automatic version of the HHR SS was going to have 25HP less than the stick.

I think it`s for two reasons other than the trans,as usually the first gear in a trans is the strongest,you get a heavy load going with first right? The reasons for the power reduction are 1) to reduce the effect of torque steer to keep people out of trouble when they mash the gas and 2) to keep from being sued by people who get themselves into trouble when they mash the gas.

I have read of other cars,mostly exotics,they have some sort of horsepower reduction at lower speeds and gears to get the car moving before it all kicks in.

Speaking of mashing the gas on the take-off....the 4T45E models (1998) 8WCR to (2002) 2WCR (Malibu Classics) would up-shift to 2nd gear when right side wheel spin was detected on take-off with the 3.4L V6's. A "basic" traction control. All done with the ABS and VCM module I/O's, not hardware in the tranny.
The 4T45E is also used on the 3.5L V6 Auras, G 6's & Malibus

The Caliber is using a CVT transmission...IMHO it isn't an automatic, just a gear reducer with a reverse.

Clare

Nope the srt4 version is using a six speed manual.http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/08/aye-carumba-dodge-unloads-the-300-hp-caliber-srt-4/ 3rd paragraph.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsSpecs&vehicleCode=RX8

Mazda RX-8
Manual- 232 horsepower
Auto- 212 horsepower

Performance Racing-inspired paddles on the steering wheel allow drivers to make quick shifts without taking their hands off the steering wheel. Or, leave it in automatic mode and let the car do the shifting. It's the best of both worlds.

Paddle shifters, now that would be cool...:cool:

Nope the srt4 version is using a six speed manual.http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/08/aye-carumba-dodge-unloads-the-300-hp-caliber-srt-4/ 3rd paragraph.

Sorry,...my point was that the other Caliber(s) use the CVT trans as the automatic drivetrain, and not a "traditional gear drive".
I can't find any srt4's listed with anything other than a 6 speed stick. (No auto option available?)

As for wear and tear on starting and stopping, the new BAS models (8BAJ, 8BBJ and 8CKJ) 4T45E for the Hybrid Malibu, Aura & Saturn Vue has beefed up lower gears to handle the stress.:cool:

Clare

Sorry,...my point was that the other Caliber(s) use the CVT trans as the automatic drivetrain, and not a "traditional gear drive".
I can't find any srt4's listed with anything other than a 6 speed stick. (No auto option available?)

As for wear and tear on starting and stopping, the new BAS models (8BAJ, 8BBJ and 8CKJ) 4T45E for the Hybrid Malibu, Aura & Saturn Vue has beefed up lower gears to handle the stress.:cool:

Clare

Yeah I thought they would would to have an auto to broden its appeal but I guess not. Chevy made the right move having a auto as an option even if you don't get full power. But Snoopy has a very good point.

Paddle shifters, now that would be cool...:cool:

I have those in my Lancer GTS lots of FUN! :thumb: :cool: :nuts:

yeah prolly lots of MONEY! :thumbsdow

actually they should make it option, now that would still be cool.

yeah prolly lots of MONEY! :thumbsdow

actually they should make it option, now that would still be cool.

You wouldn't need any changes in the 4T45E, it's programmable. A chip or design change in the VCM and a major wiring job in the steering column for the switches ....may run into some major $$$.

Clare

Honestly I am not really concerned with the 10 less horsepower. But I am concerned with the 38 less torque. I guess I will have to wait for a stronger automatic transmission. It's too bad that the rear wheel drive 5 speed from the solstice and sky cannot be used in the HHR.

im sure torque steer management is the reason for the reduction. They don't want ppl driving their new HHR SS's into the neighbor's lawn. So im not sure if there will ever be a stronger automatic tranny for this vehicle.

im sure torque steer management is the reason for the reduction. They don't want ppl driving their new HHR SS's into the neighbor's lawn. So im not sure if there will ever be a stronger automatic tranny for this vehicle.

Could any sort of torque steer problems be managed by a traction control or stability system as opposed to cutting the output? This way the full potential is always there but not necessarily used (or atleast handled properly.)

Could any sort of torque steer problems be managed by a traction control or stability system as opposed to cutting the output? This way the full potential is always there but not necessarily used (or atleast handled properly.)

So far, cutting output by limiting the engine revs is the only answer to torque steer (ie, 1997-2002 4T40E WCR's in 3.4L Malibus).
GMPowerTrain in Toledo is coming on-line soon with a six speed auto for the new '08 Malibus. Maybe it can be applied to the HHR SS.

Clare

So far, cutting output by limiting the engine revs is the only answer to torque steer (ie, 1997-2002 4T40E WCR's in 3.4L Malibus).
GMPowerTrain in Toledo is coming on-line soon with a six speed auto for the new '08 Malibus. Maybe it can be applied to the HHR SS.

Clare

well a six speed auto would be nice but I bet it would cost quite a bit more. Just how much more would be key. I would be willing to upgrade the tranny if the price was right.

The more I read on line the more I find a lot of cars are managing takeoff power. It's surprising how many are doing it these days.