I was talking to a couple of guys the other day that have fabbed up a hydrogen system on there cars and they went from getting 17 mpg to 26mpg. They had them on 97ish Ford Rangers. My dad and I are going to make a few systems for our older cars and run them for awhile and then well see about putting it on the HHR. Once we get these built and hooked up I will post some pictures. If you guys want more info look on YouTube for Stan Meyers and Roy Mccallister, or just Hydrogen there is alot videos so check it out. Maybe some one will be a little braver than me and go ahead and put it on the HHR, im just not sure and with it still under warrenty dont want to accidentally screw something up.

I was talking to a couple of guys the other day that have fabbed up a hydrogen system on there cars and they went from getting 17 mpg to 26mpg. They had them on 97ish Ford Rangers. My dad and I are going to make a few systems for our older cars and run them for awhile and then well see about putting it on the HHR. Once we get these built and hooked up I will post some pictures. If you guys want more info look on YouTube for Stan Meyers and Roy Mccallister, or just Hydrogen there is alot videos so check it out. Maybe some one will be a little braver than me and go ahead and put it on the HHR, im just not sure and with it still under warrenty dont want to accidentally screw something up.

Dude....please stop the madness. Please stop the hype. This stuff is crap.
No we don't want more propoganda...

Ok..lets try a different approach.

Those "couple of guys" you were talking to are idiots. Not in the "yo mamma" sence of idiot, but UNEDUCATED. You and your Dad are also. I am uneducated about many many many things, However this is not one of them.
So help me help you....no help me help us ALL.

STOP THE MADNESS.

Actually Hydrogen gas injection has been proven to increase mileage and remove emissions.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1518556
article is a couple yrs old but still good

Actually Hydrogen gas injection has been proven to increase mileage and remove emissions.

He did not say hydrogen injection. He said simply hydrogen. Hydrogen injection is different than most of the recent junk on the internet about water for gas and such things.

Change the name of the thread to Hydrogen Injection please?

He did not say hydrogen injection. He said simply hydrogen. Hydrogen injection is different than most of the recent junk on the internet about water for gas and such things.

Change the name of the thread to Hydrogen Injection please?

Hmmm,
That is true. perhaps it is not hydrogen injection...

Cleveland, does Hot Air Injection help?

Sorry i click post before i was finished...lol
Could you please explain what type of "system" this is ecl. Didnd't mean to jump down your throat so quickly, but the recent increase in gas prices have made people so GULLIBLE to believe anything. So I am quick to CRUSH the BULLS&%@

Hmmm,
That is true. perhaps it is not hydrogen injection...

Cleveland, does Hot Air Injection help?

I almost didn't reply because I thought "hot air" was some sort of a joke. I don't see a smily face anywhere?

LOL

Seriously, you mpg does suffer (at least mine does) before the car is up to a steady operating temp, so if your talking about a hot air "intake" to get your car up to operating temp quicker, I guess that would gain a very small amount of FE in the colder states for the first 5-10 minutes of your drive. You would need someway to turn such a "system" off or risk losing power once the engine was warm or in warm weather. These little hhr engines warm up quick so I think working on fuel efficient driving is more worth it. BTW , I have no idea where you would get lots of hot air in Minnesota on a January morning to run up your intake (or wherever needed to warm the engine) anyway?

No, hot air injection does not work. The colder the air, with proper atomization of fuel, the more expansion you create when ignition happens. Therefore more power. Yes, you add more fuel with colder air but then you just end up reducing the throttle position because you are only wanting to produce the power you need for the driving you are doing at the time. Long story short, hot air will not help. I could write a book...... Yes, there is an issue of better fuel atomization at higher temperatures but then you need to use a supercharger or turbo to make up for the high temperature mixture low power potential. That takes power to run and has losses, no free lunch.

Just stirring the pot a little bit, but have ya'll ever heard of the Adiabatic, Or Hot Vapor Cycle Engine, that Smokey Yunick worked on? Early testing showed some serious promise (IIRC, there was a working prototype Dodge Omni with the 2.2 that made around 300hp or so, and a 2cyl that made 150hp and got 50mpg). There are a few pages on Google search about it, here's a translated page - http://schou.dk/hvce/

well first off i dont really take being insulted lightly, however I understand that I didnt fully explain, this is in no way a water only system. This is a hydrogen injection. Pretty much what it is a container with some metal plates or tubes that you hook up the battery, fill with water, cap the container with a lid that has a tube that runs to your intake. these guys I was talking to were freinds not just anybody so I do trust them. They have ran their system for about 4000 miles and have had increased mileage.

Hydrogen is absolutely wonderful as a fuel. The supply will never deplete. The problems are: producing it, distributing it, and storing it on board vehicles in quantities that make it practical.
It may surprise you to know that a liquid gallon of gasoline has more hydrogen in it than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. Don't tell me I am full of it - I am not.
The prevalent method of producing hydrogen is methane reformation. Take natural gas (mostly methane - CH4) and mix it under high pressure with superheated water (H2O). CH4 + H2O = H2 +CO2. You get carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas) and hydrogen.
Now ask yourself what kind of energy it takes to accomplish this chemical reaction. The answer is: lots - lots of energy derived from fossil fuels.
To store enough hydrogen aboard a vehicle to go an average of 300 miles would require a high-pressure storage vessel that would be so heavy as to nullify and fuel efficiency. Liquid hydrogen regasification is no solution because of what I mentioned above - the energy density of liquid hydrogen is nowhere near that of gasoline. You'd need a darn big insulated tank.

And then - finally - hydrogen explodes if you look at it cross-eyed.

These are all problems which will eventually be solved. But the commitment of capital will be incredibly huge and it will take decades before a payoiff is realized.

Pissy little amounts of hydrogen produced via electrolysis on board a vehicle by sticking electrodes in a water tank will not save you anything in the long run.

well first off i dont really take being insulted lightly, however I understand that I didnt fully explain, this is in no way a water only system. This is a hydrogen injection. Pretty much what it is a container with some metal plates or tubes that you hook up the battery, fill with water, cap the container with a lid that has a tube that runs to your intake. these guys I was talking to were freinds not just anybody so I do trust them. They have ran their system for about 4000 miles and have had increased mileage.

Don't get bent out of shape, it's hard to sound friendly over a text. I guess my question is where does the hydrogen come from, in what amounts do you need. Can you produce those amounts from a system that is small enough to fit in your car. The energy required to evolve that hydrogen cost something (energy or money), so what is that cost. If so, how do you produce more energy than you use. BTW your system does sound like "water for gas".

Why don't you just buy hydrogen (natural gas and hydrogen) and inject it. That way you can use as much as you like, your engine is free of the energy production duties making hydrogen, and you can lean out your motor as far as you dare???

Hydrogen is absolutely wonderful as a fuel. The supply will never deplete. The problems are: producing it, distributing it, and storing it on board vehicles in quantities that make it practical.
It may surprise you to know that a liquid gallon of gasoline has more hydrogen in it than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. Don't tell me I am full of it - I am not.
The prevalent method of producing hydrogen is methane reformation. Take natural gas (mostly methane - CH4) and mix it under high pressure with superheated water (H2O). CH4 + H2O = H2 +CO2. You get carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas) and hydrogen.
Now ask yourself what kind of energy it takes to accomplish this chemical reaction. The answer is: lots - lots of energy derived from fossil fuels.
To store enough hydrogen aboard a vehicle to go an average of 300 miles would require a high-pressure storage vessel that would be so heavy as to nullify and fuel efficiency. Liquid hydrogen regasification is no solution because of what I mentioned above - the energy density of liquid hydrogen is nowhere near that of gasoline. You'd need a darn big insulated tank.

And then - finally - hydrogen explodes if you look at it cross-eyed.

These are all problems which will eventually be solved. But the commitment of capital will be incredibly huge and it will take decades before a payoiff is realized.

Pissy little amounts of hydrogen produced via electrolysis on board a vehicle by sticking electrodes in a water tank will not save you anything in the long run.

Moreover, how do you plan to keep the hydrogen (assuming high purity) inside a pressure container for any length of time??? Holding hydrogen in a "tank" is like trying to hold sand in a soccer net.

One of my professor's was working with a $10,000,000 grant to find a way to bind large quantities of hydrogen in a solid. Then through some process, evolve the hydrogen on demand as a gas. Not an easy problem to solve?

No, hot air injection does not work. The colder the air, with proper atomization of fuel, the more expansion you create when ignition happens. Therefore more power. Yes, you add more fuel with colder air but then you just end up reducing the throttle position because you are only wanting to produce the power you need for the driving you are doing at the time. Long story short, hot air will not help. I could write a book...... Yes, there is an issue of better fuel atomization at higher temperatures but then you need to use a supercharger or turbo to make up for the high temperature mixture low power potential. That takes power to run and has losses, no free lunch.

I was not saying that "hot air" would help, a WARMER ENGINE AT START UP UNTIL STEADY STATE WOULD HELP. I have no idea how to accomplish this with "hot air" at start up because that IS the problem, everything is cold :)
Also, tell ecl no free lunch. He needs to hear that badly.

well first off i dont really take being insulted lightly, however I understand that I didnt fully explain, this is in no way a water only system. This is a hydrogen injection. Pretty much what it is a container with some metal plates or tubes that you hook up the battery, fill with water, cap the container with a lid that has a tube that runs to your intake. these guys I was talking to were freinds not just anybody so I do trust them. They have ran their system for about 4000 miles and have had increased mileage.

Who are these "guys you trust". What are there qualifications to make you want to experiment with your money-time-warranty?

This system doesnt cost a whole lot just a container to hold the rods and water, that is then connected to the battery wich provides the power for the electrolisis. Im not holding or storing the hydrogen for long periods, its more like funneling it to the intake from the tank that holds the water. The main source of fuel is still gasoline, the hydrogen is just an additive and yes it does improve fuel mileage. These guys are family friends that we have known for years thats why I trust them, as for qualifications im not sure other than they know how to calculate their own fuel mileage, as im sure you do to, and have gotten better since adding this. I am in no way substituing or suggesting to run cars on pure water/hydrogen just a little additive to up mpgs. Im also not going to run this on the HHR until I see what the long term affect is and the warranty has expired im not that stupid, I will be running it on a 1990 Ford Bronco II and a 1986 Ford Ranger. Im doing my test and if it all fails so what im out 30 bucks max, so I figure why not try? My question is why is every one so negative about this? Have you done it or no any one that has? Whats wrong with a few test on an older vehicle with a system that others have used and have had good results?

This system doesnt cost a whole lot just a container to hold the rods and water, that is then connected to the battery wich provides the power for the electrolisis. Im not holding or storing the hydrogen for long periods, its more like funneling it to the intake from the tank that holds the water. The main source of fuel is still gasoline, the hydrogen is just an additive and yes it does improve fuel mileage. These guys are family friends that we have known for years thats why I trust them, as for qualifications im not sure other than they know how to calculate their own fuel mileage, as im sure you do to, and have gotten better since adding this. I am in no way substituing or suggesting to run cars on pure water/hydrogen just a little additive to up mpgs. Im also not going to run this on the HHR until I see what the long term affect is and the warranty has expired im not that stupid, I will be running it on a 1990 Ford Bronco II and a 1986 Ford Ranger. Im doing my test and if it all fails so what im out 30 bucks max, so I figure why not try? My question is why is every one so negative about this? Have you done it or no any one that has? Whats wrong with a few test on an older vehicle with a system that others have used and have had good results?

Fair enough ecl. i'm not a negative person, i help wherever I can on this forum. I like efficiency, utility and power...in that order lol. I am being so negative because what you are attempting to do is impossible. You are not injecting hydrogen, your are creating (with the engine) and then injecting (back into the engine) what you created. This is not like propane injection in diesels....where your engine IS NOT MAKING THE PROPANE, just injecting it from some container. You cannot make enough fuel with $30 of equipment to use a fuel source...that is obvious. What is not obvious to you (yet) is that you also cannot make enough to significantly affect your engine without drawing enough energy from that same engine to offset any gains. You are trying to bend you head around something that stan meyers tried and failed to accomplish. I don't want to squash your attempts, or your posts. Keep us informed. If I am wrong, ill take a trip, shake your hand, and buy quite a few of these systems. Im serious about that.

BTW, if you are wrong, then all you have lost is $30, but you will have gained some knowledge

I appreciate that and I will post some picture when I get them.

Dude....please stop the madness. Please stop the hype. This stuff is crap.
No we don't want more propoganda...

Ok..lets try a different approach.

Those "couple of guys" you were talking to are idiots. Not in the "yo mamma" sence of idiot, but UNEDUCATED. You and your Dad are also. I am uneducated about many many many things, However this is not one of them.
So help me help you....no help me help us ALL.

STOP THE MADNESS.

yep... that s why california is putting hygogen stations... or that icland or greenland (don t recall which) has mostly converted...

the one i want to here about is the 50 plus year old guy that figured out how to get more than a 150 mpg out of a 60s ford mustang... he was on GMA last week. taking his beater to have it privitly and federally tested... GMA said that they would announce the results.

or the kid (19) that started a buisness converting hummers to get over 20 mpg... that was a tv intervue a few weeks ago... course is cost about $30k but i guess you insist on humming and want more than 11mpg to pay

so we ll keep help you by keeping you up to date with the news

yep... that s why california is putting hygogen stations... or that icland or greenland (don t recall which) has mostly converted...

the one i want to here about is the 50 plus year old guy that figured out how to get more than a 150 mpg out of a 60s ford mustang... he was on GMA last week. taking his beater to have it privitly and federally tested... GMA said that they would announce the results.

or the kid (19) that started a buisness converting hummers to get over 20 mpg... that was a tv intervue a few weeks ago... course is cost about $30k but i guess you insist on humming and want more than 11mpg to pay

so we ll keep help you by keeping you up to date with the news

??? did you say $30k, as in US$30,000!!!!! To do what? LOL....there are a lot of usless and pointless patents out there. 30000 to get 9mpg better ought to be added to the list.

I think you are refering to Doug Pelmar. 80mpg and 400hp fom an 87stang, the xprize competitor, hope he does it. Hope he isn't just creating hype. His work has yet to be critiqued, if it stands up to the test, he will be a millionare, and very very famous. If not, one GIANT JACKASS.

My "gut" tells me this is some sort of a gimmick.

^^^
like i said if you want to hum... and you can afford it... do it... most... i say most rich folk aren t stupid. these aren t patients... this is the kid doing diesl mods to the engines...

by your reasoning anyone paying a couple of hundred grand for a car is out out their mind

yes i said $30k

not the guy you refered (don t think) to on the ford.... it was a 60's mustange that he (an old guy who had the car since new) had been tinkering with (guessing a little 6 banger) for 30 or so years.... and it was over 150 mpg... local morning news (have to take notes next time)

^^^
like i said if you want to hum... and you can afford it... do it... most... i say most rich folk aren t stupid. these aren t patients... this is the kid doing diesl mods to the engines...

by your reasoning anyone paying a couple of hundred grand for a car is out out their mind

yes i said $30k

not the guy you refered (don t think) to on the ford.... it was a 60's mustange that he (an old guy who had the car since new) had been tinkering with (guessing a little 6 banger) for 30 or so years.... and it was over 150 mpg... local morning news (have to take notes next time)

If you find out who it is , let me know. I'm always intersted.

The process that the original poster is talking about is producing HHO or Brown's gas through electrolysis. This method will in fact improve your fuel mileage. The way it works isn't too difficult to produce and it doesn't require the storage of hydrogen. This system makes hydrogen on demand. The only thing you will need to store is a small amount of water, usually less than a gallon.

Basically what this does is send electricity through water with an electrolyte added such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) which will separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen and then using a tube attached to the intake, (usually just into the plastic intake after the air filter and MAF sensor). The Hydrogen assists with the combustion and will actually make your engine run lean as far as gasoline goes. Now running lean usually is very bad but in this case it isn't because the hydrogen is making up for the lack of gasoline. And after combustion the hydrogen and oxygen will return to H2O (water) in the exhaust. This process does require a decent amount of current usually around 20Amps and it will make a good amount of heat.

This is really a very interesting concept and more research needs to be put into this. Just do some research on the internet and you will find a lot of very informative information. I have a feeling we will be seeing HHO/Brown's Gas vehicles within the next 5-10 years.

Oh, yeah, Brown's gas.... Just add 5 qts. of Snake Oil to your crankcase next oil change... :confused:

Let's face it. If this was of absolutely ANY merit, don't you think that GM engineering is well aware of any possible benefits? :eek: And, given their unfortuanate situation of having numerous large SUVs and pickups sitting unsold in dealer's lots, shuttering the plants that produce them, etc., that this so-called inexpensive and effective method of increasing mileage would be just a simple retrofit of that unsold inventory and would save GM from billlions of losses in the current market? :eek:

Yeah, right... :one: :lol: :nuts:

The process that the original poster is talking about is producing HHO or Brown's gas through electrolysis. This method will in fact improve your fuel mileage. The way it works isn't too difficult to produce and it doesn't require the storage of hydrogen. This system makes hydrogen on demand. The only thing you will need to store is a small amount of water, usually less than a gallon.

Basically what this does is send electricity through water with an electrolyte added such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) which will separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen and then using a tube attached to the intake, (usually just into the plastic intake after the air filter and MAF sensor). The Hydrogen assists with the combustion and will actually make your engine run lean as far as gasoline goes. Now running lean usually is very bad but in this case it isn't because the hydrogen is making up for the lack of gasoline. And after combustion the hydrogen and oxygen will return to H2O (water) in the exhaust. This process does require a decent amount of current usually around 20Amps and it will make a good amount of heat.

This is really a very interesting concept and more research needs to be put into this. Just do some research on the internet and you will find a lot of very informative information. I have a feeling we will be seeing HHO/Brown's Gas vehicles within the next 5-10 years.

Sigh....another person duped by phoney science.
I have made dozens of chemical systems , and modified many chemical processes. I have not wasted my time with this. Guess why???? This "brown gas" ....lol quite technical don't ya think?, has been around for a very long time. An it will stay around as long as people don't understand it. Can anyone out here on this forum please explain to me how this system works. Can anyone put together a decent defense as to how this system improves mileage. So far no one is willing to stand behind water for gas or any of "these" types of gimmicks.

You know what...I'VE HAD IT.

ILL BE MAKING ON OF THESE &*&%&ING SYSTEMS THIS WEEKEND, TEST IT MYSELF, THEN PROMPTLY BOW DOWN IN DEFEAT OR RUN IT OVER IN MY HHR ON YOUTUBE.

SEE YA MONDAY.

Sigh....another person duped by phoney science.
I have made dozens of chemical systems , and modified many chemical processes. I have not wasted my time with this. Guess why???? This "brown gas" ....lol quite technical don't ya think?, has been around for a very long time. An it will stay around as long as people don't understand it. Can anyone out here on this forum please explain to me how this system works. Can anyone put together a decent defense as to how this system improves mileage. So far no one is willing to stand behind water for gas or any of "these" types of gimmicks.

You know what...I'VE HAD IT.

ILL BE MAKING ON OF THESE &*&%&ING SYSTEMS THIS WEEKEND, TEST IT MYSELF, THEN PROMPTLY BOW DOWN IN DEFEAT OR RUN IT OVER IN MY HHR ON YOUTUBE.

SEE YA MONDAY.

I just explained it to you can you not comprehend it! And it is called BROWN'S GAS, not brown gas. Hydrogen is a very highly flammable gas, when produced by electrolysis and sucked into the intake of the engine it will make the engine request less gasoline and use the hydrogen in it's place. It is a very simple concept. The hydrogen is not the only fuel being used during combustion it is still using gasoline, but it is using less gasoline then normally used. It really shouldn't be too hard to comprehend. Read some articles on the net and watch some videos, if this were fake or a scam why would people who have nothing to gain be praising it? I can understand it being a scam if everyone who ever used it said it didn't work or people not being able to show real results but there is plenty of evidence showing that it does work! Just use google or you tube to look for videos of hho cars. There are plenty of videos out there and not all of them are even from the US there are people all over the world setting this up. I would not suggest just throwing one of these together over the weekend without some extensive testing and research first. You can severely damage your vehicle if this isn't set up right. There seem to be alot of people who know a little about chemistry that say this just can't possibly work but then there are those who have used it and can prove it does work! As the Chinese proverb says “the person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it”.

Here is a link to a video that will show you how flammable HHO/brown's gas is.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1992306621001923605&q=hho+gas&ei=MjJ1SPzdBoqUrgLP5rWiCw&hl=en



Brown's design


Oxyhydrogen gas produced in a common-ducted electrolyzer has been referred to as "Brown's gas",[citation needed] after Yull Brown who received a utility patent for a series cell common-ducted electrolyzer in 1977 and 1978 (the term "Brown's gas" is not used in his patents, but "a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen" is referenced).[8][10] Brown's torches also used an electric arc to increase the temperature of the flame (called atomic welding).[8]

^^^

remember "mother earth news"? that little magazine use to have all kinds of neat articals about gagits that save bucks in odd ways... some were pretty ingenious. tried a couple of them for the fun of it... mostly the ones i tried worked (mostely solar... now allot of people are rediscovering what "off the grid" is. good old "MEN"

i don t discount anything... watching those two guys on DISCOVERY CH... driving around the USA testing all these little ideas...

if water injection can increase HP in aircraft engines... why not hydrogen?

Actually Redflyr, water injection in aircraft engines is not done to increase hp but rather to prevent the engine from self destruction when operated in the "war emergency" setting which is like 115% output only to be used to save your butt from a ME109. Very little actual water was carried, enough to operate for only a few minutes.

This whole business on "hydrogen" is just another example of the perpetual motion machine. It just will not work. The bond between the h and the o2 in water is very strong and very difficult to break. It requires quite a bit of energy to achieve (note the "20 amps of current" required) and the energy has to come from somewhere. The large amount of heat produced is simply lost energy meaning what you get out is less, by the amount of the heat at least, then what you put in. Simple math.

Yes you are getting out less than you put in. Just like with regular gasoline you only use roughly 13% of the gasolines energy. The addition of hydrogen even though it is in small quantities compared to an actual hydrogen fuel cell, will increase the efficiency of gasoline. There is no doubt in my mind that this isn't a super efficient way to create hydrogen, but we are not trying to create large amounts of hydrogen. We are just trying to create enough to reduce the amount of gasoline that is required.

actually both of you need to review the following article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29

the artical covers both aircraft piston and turbine and automobile water injection system that have been installed in cars by various mfgs

my personal experience,,, about 1800 flight hours and 13 years of servicing P3 A/Bs... the alpha models almost always used WA for take offs... either because of outside temp or because we were carrying alpha loads. WA gave us several hundred addition HP per engine with the same fuel flow settings... the bravos came with new T56 engines that eliminated the need for WA...

turbo prop engines are always more efficient on humid or on rainy days... efficiency was really hurt on hot dry days... (partially the PROPS and air density)

the same rules of air density most likely apply to piston engines

science fact... read the article.

info only... we water washed running engines to clean the crude off the turbine blades... if that didn t work we walnut shelled them... saved allot of engine changes by cleaning out the carbon and salt deposit up on the turbine blades... we water washed (drive through wash racks) the whole plane to clean off the salt deposits from flying 100 to 200 feet off the water...

not talking about perpetual motion here...

cooling is only part of the story...

actually both of you need to review the following article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29

the artical covers both aircraft piston and turbine and automobile water injection system that have been installed in cars by various mfgs

my personal experience,,, about 1800 flight hours and 13 years of servicing P3 A/Bs... the alpha models almost always used WA for take offs... either because of outside temp or because we were carrying alpha loads. WA gave us several hundred addition HP per engine with the same fuel flow settings... the bravos came with new T56 engines that eliminated the need for WA...

turbo prop engines are always more efficient on humid or on rainy days... efficiency was really hurt on hot dry days... (partially the PROPS and air density)

the same rules of air density most likely apply to piston engines

science fact... read the article.

info only... we water washed running engines to clean the crude off the turbine blades... if that didn t work we walnut shelled them... saved allot of engine changes by cleaning out the carbon and salt deposit up on the turbine blades... we water washed (drive through wash racks) the whole plane to clean off the salt deposits from flying 100 to 200 feet off the water...

not talking about perpetual motion here...

cooling is only part of the story...

Why would you post a website that does not support your position (and also one that I have already read).Why would you use wiki to teach an ENGINEER about water injection???? The problem here is understanding of the facts...not more infomation. Clearly you do not take into account the DETAILS in the article. The article is telling you that this is a futile effort. I do not understate your understanding of aircraft engines, nor your experience. But understand the difference between mechanics and service people and engineers. No disrespect, we both have different experinces and skill sets.

Re read the last (although lacking in scientific detail) paragraph about CARS. Note the word INTERCOOLER! OPPS I have one of those? Guess what GM didn't add that would be MUCH CHEAPER........Give up......water injection.

^^^
yea ... mechs have to work on the things the engineers screwed it up in the first place... the P3 was the Lockheed Electra... made the dogs howl...
P3C had several hundred modifications recommended by aircrew and mechs of all trades.
guess i miss read the article... missed the part where it said water injection DECREASES HP and that it has NEVER had automotive applications.

guess i beter get my money back on my degree... they never taught me to read.

didn t see any where here that you were an engineer... i guess we need to start posting our resumes...

wish i had the international awards (automotive applications of hydroden) that brown has. first one while he was still in high school in the 50s. i know he s a quak.


read the winki artical about iceland...

Dixie Raye... a past WA Governor (
WSU prof) was being interview about WAs nuclear energy program (affectionately referred to as WHOOPS). her house was cluttered with hundreds of books on nuclear energy and physics... the reporter noted that he didn t know that she was a physisist... her reply was "i m not yet"

china is graduating 100 engineers to the USA 1... what does that mean... are they going to do things a 100 times better... 100 times faster...

Ron T. a friend that takes me to breakfast a few times a month... ret Boeing engineer says the Chinese aircraft engineers are sub par... because of his personal experiences with them... and is surprised that they have a nuc sub program... and had never heard of the soviet Tu blackjack... but ask him about fluid mechs or properties of metal... or how to clean a tube that has a whole that is only a few hundredths in diameter (nozzles on micro jets)... quite impressive... speaks fluent russian... does decent work on cars... more energy at 80 than be at 60. but no common sense... always jabbing him about how he goes about things.

so site me documents (pro and con) along with opinions and i pay more attention

AC or DC... 110 or 220... not everyone agrees but it all works one way or another.

and which country will be completely independent of petroleum in the next few decades



i ll print out the winki article on the Chrysler and Saab water injection systems and see what he has to say...

agentsmith23, you got the facts, use them. More energy going in the getting out. Where does the energy going in come from? The cars engine, of course. So there is a net loss of energy. Less efficient overall. Simple. You cannot get something for nothing.

was surfing and found this http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/home_n.asp?dir=detail&id=3495

was surfing and found this http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/home_n.asp?dir=detail&id=3495

Yikes, don't revive this thread...lol

Always trust Centauri!

sorry man...didja click on the info link while you were there?

was surfing and found this http://www.autoaccessorystore.com/home_n.asp?dir=detail&id=3495

About that article.

Article Quote:
Do you have a new car? Don't worry this will not ruin your warranty, the installation is completely reversible.In fact your dealer won't even know you have it installed it's so discreet.

Only if the tech that opens the hood is a complete moron. :roll:

I would quote more, and give my dispute but it's just not worth the time. Maybe some think this works but I am highly sceptical about it.

My dad has an old 51 Chevy pickup that runs and he will try this out soon enough. his mileage sucks and wanted to see if this would improve it.

(by "it" I mean the creation of Brown's gas via electrolosis... I doubt it will work, but its only 20 bucks and 2 hours of install time)

About that article.

Article Quote:
Do you have a new car? Don't worry this will not ruin your warranty, the installation is completely reversible.In fact your dealer won't even know you have it installed it's so discreet.

Only if the tech that opens the hood is a complete moron. :roll:

I would quote more, and give my dispute but it's just not worth the time. Maybe some think this works but I am highly sceptical about it.

It wont void your warranty because it wont do shizz for you or to your car. Kill this thread...lol I make brown gas each and everyday (yuck), and it will do about the same for my hhr as that 20 bucks your about to waste.

Thats how the Cleveland Browns got their name... along with their play on the field.

Thats how the Cleveland Browns got their name... along with their play on the field.

http://www.chevyhhr.net/gallery/files/6/1/7/7/IMAGE_030.jpg

I know I was there. Man, I'm still wiping it off my face. At least it was a perfect sunny day for a short walk over to the lake for a slaughter :)

I see the FTC is launching an investigation to stop the fraud by some selling these gas generators. Glad to see the govt can still do something right.

I just dont see why you all so negative on this. They are producing hydrogen based vehicles, this stuff does work. We have this on my dads 86 ford ranger, and just this weekend went and hauled some wood bed loaded and pulling a loaded trailer and got 22mpg, not sure exactly what we got before when hauling wood but empty use to get 17-20mpg ish. Ive seen these things work on more than just our vehicle, my dad actually got the idea from a friend that was playing with it, now they're figure out things together. Different methods work better, and it doesnt cost much to get it going, as soon as we perfect one it is going on the HHR. Ive tried to get a guy that has an HHR with a setup on here but havent seen heard from him.

The debaters from this old thread aren't as active any longer, but surely will get some new discussion going.

HHO (brown's gas) is crap, and there are numerous news stories that have disproven it. H2 is different and is a viable source for fuel if you can find a way to store it. The main issue with HHO is that you are trying to power your car with the same engine you are using to generate the fuel. That is like a motor hooked up to a battery which turns a generator to recharge the battery...eventually the battery dies because perpetual motion is physically impossible. It has also been stated in the forum several times that those HHO systems produce quite a bit of heat, and most people know that heat is wasted energy.

H2 is a very simple concept and most cars setup to run on LPG or natural gas can run on H2, but the issue is storage. With a large tank of gaseous hydrogen and an average size engine, you would go through the entire tank in roughly 5 minutes. I think with future technology we will be able to improve the storage capacity of hydrogen as well as the network of fuel stations, but it is not currently viable.

As for HHO, I really hope that nobody on this forum gets suckered into wasting their money on one of those scams. As one news organization put it, "The sellers of HHO have broken many laws...the law of physics is not one of them."

The Sept 2010 of Hot Rod magazine has an article on Smokey's hot-vapor engine Fiero. I saw this car at the Fiero Factory ( www.thefierofactory.com ) a couple of years ago. One of the guys got to drive it and it ran like a scalded cat. An experimental engine that never made it to production. It may have been a problematic engine for the general public.

Liquid hydrogen stored under very high in a tank in a car...the first time one collides with an 18-wheeler and explodes like the Hindenburg that will be the end of it.

Liquid hydrogen stored under very high in a tank in a car...the first time one collides with an 18-wheeler and explodes like the Hindenburg that will be the end of it.

I think out of all the Hydrogen methods (not including brown's gas, I mean stuff that actually works. lol) liquid hydrogen seems to be the best, but it definately has drawbacks. Of course the H-bomb like you mentioned, and my favorite one is the fact that we can't keep it cryogenically stored in our cars for very long, so we could top off our tanks in the future, and then go on vacation only to return to a car that is out of gas because it all was vented into the atmosphere. I know someone on TV mentioned a long time ago about plugging in a hydrogen fuel cell car to your house to power your house when you are not driving...hopefully that would work the same way as solar panels where it will send power back to the grid and you can at least get paid a bit to offset the cost of all the hydrogen that was wasted while you weren't driving.

I would love to see more research into liquid hydrogen as a fuel, but right now it isn't practical or economical.

Mercedes Benz has a hydrogen fuel cell in limited production now.
http://www.futurecars.com/news/fuel-cell-cars/mercedes-benz-f-cell-hydrogen-fuel-cell-b-class-in-limited-production

HHO (brown's gas) is crap, and there are numerous news stories that have disproven it. H2 is different and is a viable source for fuel if you can find a way to store it. The main issue with HHO is that you are trying to power your car with the same engine you are using to generate the fuel. That is like a motor hooked up to a battery which turns a generator to recharge the battery...eventually the battery dies because perpetual motion is physically impossible.


What does this have to do with perpetual motion. You are mining Hydrogen out of water and using it to boost the gas/air mixture.

Should have nothing to do with perpetual motion. Not free energy, Hydrogen is a chemical that would be added to Gasoline.

What you said would be like saying you can't pump air into your cylinder with the gas because there is no such thing as perpetual motion.

Don't get me wrong, I will not claim to be an expert and could be wrong but I have studied some stuff in school and what you said doesn't sound right. I also don't know enough about how much brown's gas can be produced by a car alternator or how much it takes to affect the performance of a gas engine, but have enough of an open mind to consider that the right amount of hydrogen could make gas burn much better and increase mileage.

I wonder what the OP has discovered?

The process that the original poster is talking about is producing HHO or Brown's gas through electrolysis. This method will in fact improve your fuel mileage. The way it works isn't too difficult to produce and it doesn't require the storage of hydrogen. This system makes hydrogen on demand. The only thing you will need to store is a small amount of water, usually less than a gallon.

Basically what this does is send electricity through water with an electrolyte added such as sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) which will separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen and then using a tube attached to the intake, (usually just into the plastic intake after the air filter and MAF sensor). The Hydrogen assists with the combustion and will actually make your engine run lean as far as gasoline goes. Now running lean usually is very bad but in this case it isn't because the hydrogen is making up for the lack of gasoline. And after combustion the hydrogen and oxygen will return to H2O (water) in the exhaust. This process does require a decent amount of current usually around 20Amps and it will make a good amount of heat.

This is really a very interesting concept and more research needs to be put into this. Just do some research on the internet and you will find a lot of very informative information. I have a feeling we will be seeing HHO/Brown's Gas vehicles within the next 5-10 years.

what your saying has a very basic flaw, its kind of like perpetual motion. the amount of energy it takes to produce the hydrogen can never be less than the amount of energy combusting it would produce. you said your self that the process creates heat, this is effectively wasted energy. if anything doing this modification would DECREASE mileage. just think about it for a minute.

EDIT: sorry, didnt finish reading the thread, i guess this has already been adressed

Joe Cell.