I was offered a really good price on A Turbonetics T04E with no shaft play. Its thrust bearing and .50 on the intake side. Working on the exhaust measurements still. What do you think of this turbo for the hhr? The only issue I see is that its external wastegate. Of course, I'd prefer a dual bb turbo, but this price is just too good.

From what I hear you will have to go to a different wastegate with a larger Turbo. I was wondering how big of turbo would fit back there and what kind of turbo comes stock on the SS HHR?

Ok this is what I found on our stock Turbo.

Twin-Scroll Turbocharger
The Ecotec 2.0L Turbo uses an advanced, electronically controlled turbocharger to increase power. With a turbocharger, exhaust gas leaving the cylinders spins a turbine on one end of the turbo shaft. An impeller at the opposite end of the shaft forces compressed air into the induction system, increasing the amount of oxygen available for the combustion process.

The 2.0L Turbo’s turbocharger applies a unique, twin-scroll design. Each of two scrolls on the turbine is fed by a separate exhaust passage—one from cylinders one and four, the other from cylinders two and three. The twin-scroll design virtually eliminates turbo lag at low engine speed—the time it takes for the impeller to spool up and generate boost pressure—and delivers the throttle response of a high-performance naturally aspirated engine

The turbocharger generates maximum boost of 20 psi. Because direct injection cools the intake process compared to port injection, it allows the 2.0L Turbo to safely operate at higher boost and higher compression (9.2:1) than a conventional turbo engine, increasing both output and efficiency.

Our turbo is the K04. I think it's a borg-warner, but it is a K04. It's the same turbo that's on the Mazdaspeed 3, and also used on some Audi RS models. There are certain shops that already make upgraded compressor wheels for our turbos for between $6-800 from what I've seen, but the middle man seems to be making quite a bit of money there so I'm looking for better deals. I posted earlier about a new compressor wheel from Bald Turbo Freak in another thread.

Anyway, our turbo is VERY small, maxing out around 290whp in this application according to the aftermarket. There are solstices running around with GT35R's, but that doesn't mean a turbo that size will fit behind our motor. The Synapse manifold is supposed to be able to fit a GT30R, if that manifold will work. All just FYI, Z28.

I think the T04E will fit back there, I'm just curious if it's a good match as far as the flow rate and such.

T04e (in a 50 trim) compressor map

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t04e-50.gif

KKK (BW) K04 compressor map

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/k04-0025.jpg

Our turbo is the K04. I think it's a borg-warner, but it is a K04. It's the same turbo that's on the Mazdaspeed 3, and also used on some Audi RS models.

Yes it is a Borg Warner K04.

T04e (in a 50 trim) compressor map

Some foreign picture

KKK (BW) K04 compressor map

Some other foreign picture


Can you translate these pictures to English, please?:smile: For us simpletons on the net.:thumb:

Our turbo is the K04. I think it's a borg-warner, but it is a K04. It's the same turbo that's on the Mazdaspeed 3, and also used on some Audi RS models. There are certain shops that already make upgraded compressor wheels for our turbos for between $6-800 from what I've seen, but the middle man seems to be making quite a bit of money there so I'm looking for better deals. I posted earlier about a new compressor wheel from Bald Turbo Freak in another thread.

Anyway, our turbo is VERY small, maxing out around 290whp in this application according to the aftermarket. There are solstices running around with GT35R's, but that doesn't mean a turbo that size will fit behind our motor. The Synapse manifold is supposed to be able to fit a GT30R, if that manifold will work. All just FYI, Z28.

I think the T04E will fit back there, I'm just curious if it's a good match as far as the flow rate and such.
From what I've read is that the T04/03 can push 450HP+. Maybe moving the turbo could make for a bigger turbo.

Can you translate these pictures to English, please?

The pressure maps show the operational efficiencies of the turbos. The "circles" are often called islands... the center-most being the most "efficient" for that particular unit (think of a topographical map... you want to try to keep your design toward the top of the mountain). When you get too far to the left, you get into surge territory... bad. When you get too far to the right, you run out of steam.

Run through the following formula...

CFM = (L x R x V x (14.7 + boost)/14.7)/5660

Where...

CFM = air flow to properly feed engine
L = engine displacement (liters)
R = engine RPM
V = volumetric efficiency of engine (you can generally assume 85-90%)
PR = pressure ratio... which is shown above as (14.7 + boost)/14.7. Boost here is the top end of the boost pressure you intend to run.

Cobble all these numbers together, using a "low RPM" value for where you want the turbo to spin up and you get a "bottom" point to plot on the map. Do the same with a "high RPM" and you get a top point to plot. Use those 2 points to draw a rectangle (they tend to plot out on a diagonal... just draw vertical and horizontal lines from each point until they cross and you'll have a rectangle. Now... make sure that rectangle is overlaying the high-efficiency islands.

Hmmm... that's hard to explain with just words.

Errm, is the turbo good or bad? LOL

Errm, is the turbo good or bad? LOL

It doesn't work that way. It's a piece of the system... and you've got to design the system properly to make use of this particular piece. Keep in mind, you're going to be in new territory... so plan on a LOT of trial and error with your tuning.

Just a thought... sometimes "a really good price" isn't why you should buy something. Make sure it's what you want to build your system around. If not, you may end up spending more when you shelve the Turbonetics for some other model. We're all subject to this problem... I've already started collecting scraps for my "tried and failed" shelf :(

please,to all wanting to try bigger turbos.let's just remember what we have here. don't get me wrong,i want the most out of my car,but not to the point where it's running like crap and i'm running to some expensive tuner to get it worked out. we have an hhr ss. not a race car or some super import(supra,evo,skyline,etc...) sometimes trying to find that quick instant glob of power is far more trouble than it's worth.

so far,i have not heard a solid answer on what size injectors we have. all i hear is "the lnf is more than capable...". of what??? going boom??? imo, max out the car with the bolt on's. see what it does and go from there. even if it means to wait on the vendors to get every bolt on out there ready. look,by the time the CAI and bov are ready with a true turbo back exhaust,i'm not even interested in a bigger turbo. and by the time you get every bolt on to be had,a tested and tried turbo upgrade should be out or coming around the corner. all but,2-3 people have an ic kit for god sake lol.to soon for us to be worried about bigger turbos. to each his own though.

to each his own though.

Agreed.

we have an hhr ss. not a race car or some super import(supra,evo,skyline,etc...) sometimes trying to find that quick instant glob of power is far more trouble than it's worth.


the way i see it, these "super imports" as you call them, had to start somewhere too. just because it's a slightly unorthodox vehicle to be looking for big performance out of, doesn't mean it cant or shouldn't be done. for instance, look at the MK3 Supra, that wasn't exactly a monster from the factory, but had people not put the effort into it like they did, the MK4 wouldn't be nearly what it is today. the only thing stopping these cars from becoming the next big thing in the auto scene is people's mindsets. now obviously these aren't ever going to become world-class supercars like an R8, ZR1, GTR, Ferrari, etc because their platform simply can't tolerate the kinds of things those cars are created for, but there's nothing stopping us from breaking into the world as a multi-purpose alternative to the Cobalt SS/TC and earning just as much respect as those are destined for, or even the respect of some of the greater players. the only thing holding the HHR SS back is the lack of people with the desire to try. we have a few people on here really gunning for earning their respect. these cars have the potential, they just need someone to get them out there! we will never amount to anything in our scene if no one shows what these cars are really capable of with some work, to get the interest and attention of the big aftermarket companies.

nevermind. i see people are misunderstanding what i'm saying. let me ask this. if someone gave you a free turbo,tested it for two days,would you slap it on your ss??? so far,the only people i know that know this motor inside and out is HRC. i'm not kissing bill's backside,incase someone had something to say,but alot of us don't know much about the motor to be going with turbos now. hey,if you want to go ahead and be the first,more power to ya. i will stay off this thread now.

so,the question i asked earlier,what do the stock injectors flow??? gotta be able to keep up with that bad ass turbo...

the mk3 supra,which i know the 7mgte,was easy to get power from the factory. the weakness...headgaskets. fix??? MHG and arp head bolts. place you a boost controller on and a fcd. oh full 3inch. turbo back exhaust really wake that car up. the ct26 was good for 12-15 psi beore it ran out of breath. stock boost was 8.

nevermind. i see people are misunderstanding what i'm saying. let me ask this. if someone gave you a free turbo,tested it for two days,would you slap it on your ss??? so far,the only people i know that know this motor inside and out is HRC. i'm not kissing bill's backside,incase someone had something to say,but alot of us don't know much about the motor to be going with turbos now.


There is a LOT of expertise on the 6+ year old ECOTec technology. There is a LOT MORE expertise on the 103 year old turbocharging technology. And adding forced induction to a motor isn't inherently tied to the motor itself... that is... you can turbo just about anything. Having said that, of course it would be silly to take "a free turbo and test it for two days." I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. However, if you're wondering how designs get developed... it's because the have to get developed. They don't appear magically. Someone has to do the work.

so,the question i asked earlier,what do the stock injectors flow??? gotta be able to keep up with that bad ass turbo...


Plenty.

Darnit, XXL, I was trying to get out of doing the math. I thought you might reply with the rectangle already drawn. It was worth a shot anyway. I will get on it. ;)

Brandon, from what I've heard, the most I have seen the LNF injectors use is very low (~30%) of the duty cycle. We have got lots of headroom. As to your suggestion that we should max out the LNF with bolt-ons, the performance aftermarket is pretty much in agreement that the turbo can be maxed with a tune alone. Full turboback is available from ADM, and Andy has said you'd see little to no gain on it if you are already tuned because the turbo is the limiting factor. That's why I'm already looking at big turbo. We can see gains from things like intercoolers that cool the charge or flywheels and pulleys that reduce drivetrain losses, but we stand to gain nothing from breathing mods until we free up the restriction, which is the turbo at 290-300whp. I want to see 400 or so.

As to your discussion about Hahn being the only experienced expert vendor, you are right if you only consider information you get here on these forums. But that's why I have been branching out to other LNF forums and bringing that information back here. There is a GT35R powered Solstice, and BTF is running a GT30R on his vehicle. They run their cars to 7900 and 7400rpms on a daily basis because their turbos will keep supplying air and making power to those RPM's and they've proven that the valvetrain can take it. The guy who runs his car to 7900 has replaced his balance shafts with neutral shafts from GMPP for high RPM operation. I'm waiting for someone to come out with a balance shaft removal kit to reduce oil windage, lower drivetrain losses, and allow me to rev that high. BTF has also started offering a bigwheel kit, and though the price is relatively steep, it makes significantly more power than our stocker and will carry it to 7400.

Hope that was helpful.

Darnit, XXL, I was trying to get out of doing the math. I thought you might reply with the rectangle already drawn. It was worth a shot anyway. I will get on it. ;)

Brandon, from what I've heard, the most I have seen the LNF injectors use is very low (~30%) of the duty cycle. We have got lots of headroom. As to your suggestion that we should max out the LNF with bolt-ons, the performance aftermarket is pretty much in agreement that the turbo can be maxed with a tune alone. Full turboback is available from ADM, and Andy has said you'd see little to no gain on it if you are already tuned because the turbo is the limiting factor. That's why I'm already looking at big turbo. We can see gains from things like intercoolers that cool the charge or flywheels and pulleys that reduce drivetrain losses, but we stand to gain nothing from breathing mods until we free up the restriction, which is the turbo at 290-300whp. I want to see 400 or so.

As to your discussion about Hahn being the only experienced expert vendor, you are right if you only consider information you get here on these forums. But that's why I have been branching out to other LNF forums and bringing that information back here. There is a GT35R powered Solstice, and BTF is running a GT30R on his vehicle. They run their cars to 7900 and 7400rpms on a daily basis because their turbos will keep supplying air and making power to those RPM's and they've proven that the valvetrain can take it. The guy who runs his car to 7900 has replaced his balance shafts with neutral shafts from GMPP for high RPM operation. I'm waiting for someone to come out with a balance shaft removal kit to reduce oil windage, lower drivetrain losses, and allow me to rev that high. BTF has also started offering a bigwheel kit, and though the price is relatively steep, it makes significantly more power than our stocker and will carry it to 7400.

Hope that was helpful.
30% Duty Cycle isn't bad at all. I think we could easily hit 400WHP with stock injectors. I am hearing and reading that these are the Gen II Ecotec engines and are much stronger and efficient than other 4 cyl engines. Combination of components should be looked at before installing. We all know that all mods need to work together to get the most out of it and could save a ton of money. My only concern right now for any mods in the Transmissions.

The guy who runs his car to 7900 has replaced his balance shafts with neutral shafts from GMPP for high RPM operation. I'm waiting for someone to come out with a balance shaft removal kit to reduce oil windage, lower drivetrain losses, and allow me to rev that high.

Right on... most of us on this board are NOT on the forefront of this engine platform. Reinforcing my point above-- there's LOTS of experience in front of us on mods.

BTW, for those of you headed to the parking lot to race down to your local dealer for the GMPP neutral shafts, sit back down. The part number is discontinued and GMPP is only selling out stock. I'm sure somebody else will come along with a nice rotating assy for the LNF... just don't blow anything up before then :eek:

that clear up some things for me aaron. please don't take me for being an ass. looking at the dyno numbers, eric and i are in the 260-265 hp range. if these cars max out at 290-300, then adding a turbo back should really wake this thing up. we still have 25-35 hp to go. if you get the ic,well you're maxed out i guess. i guess i worded my statement wrong.

what i meant ws, the way i'm thinikng,do all the bolt on parts now,in preparation for a bigger turbo. what's the point of looking for a bigger turbo,when the ic's and piping are not out yet(soon very soon). i knoe adm has an exhaust coming,but it's not out yet. not saying it's wrong to look to the future,but the priority should be built from the bottom on up. still looking for a better clutch to handle the power i plan on throwing at it(i plan on going bigger turbo too,around the spring time).

It's cool man. You might end up being ahead of me. I'm just doing the research now. I think you and Eric will make better numbers on a cool day under favorable conditions.

, the most I have seen the LNF injectors use is very low (~30%) of the duty cycle. We have got lots of headroom.

You need to rethink your comment on this because direct injection motors like ours must inject fuel via 1 or 2 5ms windows. Duty cycles can not go higher than that, instead higher fuel rail pressure in conjunction with bigger injectors will be needed at some point.

Simply the nature of a new beast.

You need to rethink your comment

The king has spoken?

You need to rethink your comment on this because direct injection motors like ours must inject fuel via 1 or 2 5ms windows. Duty cycles can not go higher than that, instead higher fuel rail pressure in conjunction with bigger injectors will be needed at some point.

Simply the nature of a new beast.

So how much room do we have then?

Well obviously when performing a turbo upgraded a few things need to be considered please correct if I'm wrong this has just been my acquired knowledge. More Air+More fuel= More HP. So bigger turbo means fuel delivery adjustments, ECU adjustments, intake and exhaust adjustments, and cooling adjustments. So hell I say most of those parts can either be easily fabricated or purchased. Nothing better than being a pioneer. I was considering doing a turbo swap as well but definitely need more knowledge of the tremendous little snails. I know I need to find a turbo that will flow properly for what I need, similar to you I would love to mess around with that 400 HP range. GM has put some good thoughts in this good reading I found, http://www.solsticegxpowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2325.

So how much room do we have then?

I don't know the answer to that. As far as I have read the answer lies in being able to track the fuel rail pressure and that may not currently be available. A lot of good research is going on over at the HP Tuners forum on this and other aspects of our engines.