A proposal to split the automaker in two could save brands such as Cadillac and Chevrolet while letting a bankruptcy court liquidate Hummer, Saturn and other asset
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/kill-bad-gm-so-good-gm-can-survive.aspx

Isn't that pretty much a standard bankruptcy situation? It's what K-Mart did to clean up it's act. Went bankrupt, the court rewrote or broke the contracts it had. Reset everything and got to start over. I think it's sad to say but I don't see GM standing a chance of surviving without doing it since they can't seem to make the unions understand that they have to take some hits and help out to help save the company and their jobs.

Isn't that pretty much a standard bankruptcy situation? It's what K-Mart did to clean up it's act. Went bankrupt, the court rewrote or broke the contracts it had. Reset everything and got to start over. I think it's sad to say but I don't see GM standing a chance of surviving without doing it since they can't seem to make the unions understand that they have to take some hits and help out to help save the company and their jobs.

What do you think the unions just did...where have you been in a closet? Maybe the bondholders could do some sucking up.

The name "Pontiac" wasn't mentioned at all in the article.

I had seen that Pontiac was going away except as a special order option being sold through Buick dealers. Not sure if that still stands.

The name "Pontiac" wasn't mentioned at all in the article.

Sssshhhhh...it's a secret.;););)

i had seen that pontiac was going away except as a special order option being sold through buick dealers. Not sure if that still stands.

but, but.......i love pontiac ! :(

Well for a worst case situation i think this would work. Makes a little sense.

Union's can go to hell end of story. Welcome to 2009 Not 1970, They had there time. There time is done.

Well for a worst case situation i think this would work. Makes a little sense.

Union's can go to hell end of story. Welcome to 2009 Not 1970, They had there time. There time is done.

I know they hate to hear that...but it's the truth!

I know they hate to hear that...but it's the truth!

:bow:, Thank you. Most refuse to believe its the way to go. So many people still ride the Union ban-wagon.

Yeah...the unions are really obsolete now.

Sure, they were needed in the 1930's when working conditions were terrible and pay stunk..but come on! Times have changed!!! So many people are out of jobs now and would LOVE to work for what they're being paid!!!

When you think of it a recession or depression is the time to have a union back you. Think of it with so much labor force available the manufacturer could say your going to take a $15 an hour reduction or we're going to fire you and hire someone that will.

:bow:, Thank you. Most refuse to believe its the way to go. So many people still ride the Union ban-wagon.

I might tend to agree......But personally i dont think one can blame union totally, There other factors in that equation.

I believe you take away the CEO that dont due anything and get one heck of a going away money package just dont seem right. All that money that those guys got wow, how much would have help companies, Payless Cashways, Sprint, just to name a couple.

And those who started sending things out the country so they CEO can get a fat cat, GM included... they sold the blue collar worker down the river.

So my question is how then if those guys can get that, who protects the blue collar worker.......I HAVE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME big boys take the money and run and the one who has worked on the line or the mill, and those who work with their hands to make it get stuck with nothing. Because some ceo didnt know how to run the thing and ran a company to the ground it had nothing to do with a union........Look around you open your eyes.

One can say it all started there, not just union......You cant blame the union with out pointing the finger at those fat cats CEO.... both are just to blame !!!

I was taking out some electric devices out of an office of the VP of a major company that went belly up, when i overhear a CEO over a speaker phone tell the plant manager, " I dont give a damn what they are going to do, and i dont care, I got my Seven Million dollars, and thats all that matters to me.

JMHO

:(:confused:how can anyone talk bad about unions? ever been in one? know people who are in one?corporations love to hear people talk bad about them. what about corporate greed? what about mistreating workers for bonuses?i work at a place that has both union and non-union workers. i see both sides of the coin. americas economy did not falter because of unions.if you read your history unions were formed because of un-fair working conditions.form your own opinion like unions or not but dont pass judgement on a labor practice untill you work in it, im sure alot of people could look over anyones shoulders and say that what any joe american is doing or working for is wrong and we need to get into the 21 century. well look at china, russia, europe. look at their economy. it all sucks but their wages are lower, most are controlled by a government who take controll and leave the workers with little. just a thought for those who want to blame a worker for making a decent living in a world were the price of goods go up and the workers pay go down

:(:confused:how can anyone talk bad about unions? ever been in one? know people who are in one?corporations love to hear people talk bad about them. what about corporate greed? what about mistreating workers for bonuses?i work at a place that has both union and non-union workers. i see both sides of the coin. americas economy did not falter because of unions.if you read your history unions were formed because of un-fair working conditions.form your own opinion like unions or not but dont pass judgement on a labor practice untill you work in it, im sure alot of people could look over anyones shoulders and say that what any joe american is doing or working for is wrong and we need to get into the 21 century. well look at china, russia, europe. look at their economy. it all sucks but their wages are lower, most are controlled by a government who take controll and leave the workers with little. just a thought for those who want to blame a worker for making a decent living in a world were the price of goods go up and the workers pay go down

I Personally have not been in a union, however my father was in a union for 10yrs until they closed there door's. I don't put 100% of the blame on the union's. A lot of it is Corporate greed, CEO making sure they get there bonus for driving the company into the ground. Only thing i was trying to get across is the Union's do not help by always wanting more and more regardless if the company was falling on bad time's or not.

You would think UAW would be more willing to cut back on alot of what they wanted. For Example there was no reason in Hell UAW needed basically a class room full of people that were getting paid $25hr plus to just sit there incase someone didn't show up extra. Crap like that is Bull.Obviously is GM goes bankrupt what the hell does UAW think there going to do?

I for one do think the Car industry and other industries should be controlled more by the Gov't. I'm sure alot of people don't like that view either. Apparently its needed though. Someone has to babysit all of these lazy ass CEO's,Banker's etc.

When you think of it a recession or depression is the time to have a union back you. Think of it with so much labor force available the manufacturer could say your going to take a $15 an hour reduction or we're going to fire you and hire someone that will.

Comrade Obama will ensure the STATE will properly manage the unions. IMHO you will see unions become a lot less able to work wages into the equation (The STATE will determine what is necessary for salaries and wages as we move along), however the STATE will use the unions as a pressure point for socialized medicine. The unions will become another tool of the STATE that knows what is best for individual. The individual will no longer have the right of determination.

The bottom line is the UAW is not 100% at fault.

I have been in a Union and hate unions. They are as greedy as many companies.

The bottom line is GM's problerms stem from the lack of GM to adapt over the years to a changing market. Wasteful management. GM had many internal problems in everything from purcahsing to designing. Things are changing and improving today but the lack of money has slowed the change.

The UAW does share in some of this too as they are far from blaimeless. GM should have hard lined them years ago but at the time it was easier to cave in.

Also bad timing that was beyond GM's control also hurt them. That part is just pure bad luck and not much you can do about that.

Read the book Why GM Matters and you will see all that has brought this on. It was not a single thing that caused this nor did it happen in just the last 8 years.

The problem is the press seldom explains all that is in play and the majority of the public have no idea what is really going on. The public in general are clueless as they are on most business and world affairs.

you have to think this. we live in a society were you have to have one heck of an income to make ends meet or have two incomes. regardless, if 25 dollars an hour is too much for a union member to make then where is the cut off line for the middleclass? $15 dollars an hour wont get you far in todays world. Henry Ford said he had to pay his workers a decent wage inorder for his employees to buy his products. in todays world is $15, or even $18 an hour going to provide a nice car, a nice house, and all the wants or should i say needs for a typical family? compared to Mexico, China , Japan do we really want to live like they do? copare wages, lifestyles. when we as a country started to open more and more free trade, mor jobs left here because they could pay those workers next to nothing and not lower the price of goods (or maybe a little). all im saying is look were this country is heading. im sure alot of people grew up under parents who were union. provided a good livng for their families and sent some of their kids to colledge.unfortunaley we want to pay our labor force wal-mart wages and expect them to live the american dream

you have to think this. we live in a society were you have to have one heck of an income to make ends meet or have two incomes. regardless, if 25 dollars an hour is too much for a union member to make then where is the cut off line for the middleclass? $15 dollars an hour wont get you far in todays world. Henry Ford said he had to pay his workers a decent wage inorder for his employees to buy his products. in todays world is $15, or even $18 an hour going to provide a nice car, a nice house, and all the wants or should i say needs for a typical family? compared to Mexico, China , Japan do we really want to live like they do? copare wages, lifestyles. when we as a country started to open more and more free trade, mor jobs left here because they could pay those workers next to nothing and not lower the price of goods (or maybe a little). all im saying is look were this country is heading. im sure alot of people grew up under parents who were union. provided a good livng for their families and sent some of their kids to colledge.unfortunaley we want to pay our labor force wal-mart wages and expect them to live the american dream


:twothumbs

In the end, what kind of society do we want to live in?

Do we aim to live in america, like americans? Or do we aim to bring down the standard of living, and end up living like the chinese?

If you cut the salaries, you cut the buying power as well. You cut your neighbour's salary, and he's likely to cut his spendings, and he probably wont be able to buy the products YOUR company makes.. And you'll be the next one to get a huge pay cut, because ''the company makes no money anymore''.

Rick Wagoner's was let go from GM with a $23 million check in his pocket. That's a nice pension me thinks.

How about GM retirees pensions? Will they be as lucky as Rick Wagoner? How many retirees would GM be able to support with $23 millions?

I call that, executive fleecing.

A few individuals can suck a company's blood dry. That's OK... We're in america, and we pay our executives well.

Buy in america (Canada), and WE will get richer. :usa: :canada:

Buy in china, and the chinese will get richer....

Comrade Obama will ensure the STATE will properly manage the unions. IMHO you will see unions become a lot less able to work wages into the equation (The STATE will determine what is necessary for salaries and wages as we move along), however the STATE will use the unions as a pressure point for socialized medicine. The unions will become another tool of the STATE that knows what is best for individual. The individual will no longer have the right of determination.

Where have you been? Our country has been socialist/authoritarian for quite some time now...they just don't want to call it that...

On a side note, I think part of it in fact too contributes to why the middle class is shrinking... The rich get rich, and the poor get poorer... Unfortunately, most all of us are the poor. The corporate hotshots and CEOs are the rich...

What do you think the unions just did...where have you been in a closet? Maybe the bondholders could do some sucking up.

All the union did was throw the new hires to the dogs. Tear up the UAW contracts, tear up the bonds and start over. The UAW has no teeth anymore. The bondholders bought bonds on a hope and a prayer. they knew the risks. Who buys a bond in a Union run company that sells more cars then the competition and still has not turned a profit is years....,,,I will tell you who. People who have a few dollars to throw at a very high risk venture for an extraordinarily high rate of return......They know the risks and probably have already wrote off the losses. If Joe Sixpack bought bonds in GM...shame on him.

[QUOTE=Kingfrog;373968]All the union did was throw the new hires to the dogs. QUOTE]

Obviously, your lack of research has showed up again. New Employees negotiations were made a few years ago. There have been a couple of negotiations since then. Do your research before posting.:roll:

All the union did was throw the new hires to the dogs. Tear up the UAW contracts, tear up the bonds and start over. The UAW has no teeth anymore. The bondholders bought bonds on a hope and a prayer. they knew the risks. Who buys a bond in a Union run company that sells more cars then the competition and still has not turned a profit is years....,,,I will tell you who. People who have a few dollars to throw at a very high risk venture for an extraordinarily high rate of return......They know the risks and probably have already wrote off the losses. If Joe Sixpack bought bonds in GM...shame on him.

Yeah I know 2007.....Too little too late. They have on;ly begun to make cuts, the senior employees are next to give up something.

Yeah I know 2007.....Too little too late. They have on;ly begun to make cuts, the senior employees are next to give up something.

With all your cheery tidbits, maybe your job or welfare payments will be cut too. I hope your ready for your next tax bill...:lol::lol::lol:

I have had a few union jobs and was glad that I had them.

BUT, a union job is a two-edged sword.............

It did offer protection from being unfairly fired, written-up, and so on, but it also offered protection to people who were lazy and didn't care and did just enough to get by.

So while enjoyed the protection from a-hole bosses:thumb:, others got to skate on not doing a full day of work because of union rules won through contracts.:roll: Low standards often get set that a chimp could meet and probrably do better. I've seen this first hand in the private sector and in the government.:(

Just my two cents!:2cents:

It did offer protection from being unfairly fired, written-up, and so on, but it also offered protection to people who were lazy and didn't care and did just enough to get by.

Yeah..my grandpa has told horror stories about what people used to do! When we went on a tour of his plant, he showed us the room he used to sleep in!!!!!!:eek:

I know too he said that some days people would leave, and have someone else punch them out when it was time to go home, then they'd do it for them another day.... No wonder we're having problems....:roll:

wow, chimps could do union jobs? lets be realistic. i work for a union but i also work for a power company. i put all the power lines in the air when your power goes out. i hate to think that i would make such an acusation and catogorize jobs as either bad or good. there are pros and cons with everything. as a whole union jobs are good. like everything though,you have certain people take advantage of it. get over it. look at your job or your neighbors. could a chimp do their job or does everyperson doing that job not find someway to take advantage of it. would you like to work on 14,000 volts of electricity or higher everyday. would you like to rush around and put everybodies power up in a storm, work 16 hours a day, sleep 4 hours and get paid less then $20 an hour, pay for your own insurance, and not have benefits? my boss would like to think so. so lets give peolple credit in whatever bluecollar job they work at and not insult the way of living. if you dont work for a union great, all the power to you, for those who do its their way of living. my union lets my wife stay at home and raise my kids, which is probably the most important job out there and is way underated!!!!!!!!

With all your cheery tidbits, maybe your job or welfare payments will be cut too. I hope your ready for your next tax bill...:lol::lol::lol:


I am not worried. I work part time and we own our home, live in a low property tax state and are debt free. much of our income is derived from savings interest. We don't need that much. Insurances are our largest obligation.

We prepared for an Obama Presidency and sold all stock in our investment accounts and IRA, 401K when his nomination was inevitable. Sometimes when you have lived long enough and was directly involved and responsible for your own financial future, you don;t worry about pension plans or a company staying healthy to keep collecting. You lean to DIVERSIFY for the benefit of your future rather then out all the eggs in one basket AND depend on someone else to negotiate your future for ya...

Yeah..my grandpa has told horror stories about what people used to do! When we went on a tour of his plant, he showed us the room he used to sleep in!!!!!!:eek:

I know too he said that some days people would leave, and have someone else punch them out when it was time to go home, then they'd do it for them another day.... No wonder we're having problems....:roll:

That was eons ago. Obviously you haven't been in a plant since then.:roll:

so lets give peolple credit in whatever bluecollar job they work at and not insult the way of living. if you dont work for a union great, all the power to you, for those who do its their way of living. my union lets my wife stay at home and raise my kids, which is probably the most important job out there and is way underated!!!!!!!!

Well said.:thumb::beer:

That was eons ago. Obviously you haven't been in a plant since then.:roll:


And the Easter Bunny told you that???

Funny I was watching a TV show, Dateline or 20/20 about 3 months ago where they were following a whole bunch of plant foreman, Ford I think, that checked in at work and then left and went to the bar. This was day after day after day. They had them on tape. They interviewed them in the bar. Some of them went home too. All were on the clock at the plant. Of course they all denied everything when showed the tapes later.

But I guess that was eons ago.

And the Easter Bunny told you that???

Funny I was watching a TV show, Dateline or 20/20 about 3 months ago where they were following a whole bunch of plant foreman, Ford I think, that checked in at work and then left and went to the bar. This was day after day after day. They had them on tape. They interviewed them in the bar. Some of them went home too. All were on the clock at the plant. Of course they all denied everything when showed the tapes later.

But I guess that was eons ago.

I seen that too. But that was Ford, not GM. GM has fences and security turnstiles to get in and out of the plant. You have to swipe your ID card at the turnstile which inturn affects your time on the job and pay. Some things I know( oops sry ChevyMgr, that's your quote)

So GM workers good, Ford workers bad??? :roll:

But that makes it a non-issue???? :confused:

The point is that there is still big problems with union workers in the auto industry.

wow, chimps could do union jobs? lets be realistic. i work for a union but i also work for a power company. i put all the power lines in the air when your power goes out. i hate to think that i would make such an acusation and catogorize jobs as either bad or good. there are pros and cons with everything. as a whole union jobs are good. like everything though,you have certain people take advantage of it. get over it. look at your job or your neighbors. could a chimp do their job or does everyperson doing that job not find someway to take advantage of it. would you like to work on 14,000 volts of electricity or higher everyday. would you like to rush around and put everybodies power up in a storm, work 16 hours a day, sleep 4 hours and get paid less then $20 an hour, pay for your own insurance, and not have benefits? my boss would like to think so. so lets give peolple credit in whatever bluecollar job they work at and not insult the way of living. if you dont work for a union great, all the power to you, for those who do its their way of living. my union lets my wife stay at home and raise my kids, which is probably the most important job out there and is way underated!!!!!!!!
I don't disagree with anything you say!

I did say that unions are good also. You failed to see that.

No matter what you say though, unions also protect the jobs of many who deserve to lose their job, or at least it should be given to someone more willing to do the work. I'm not saying that people like this are the majority either. Most union workers, like me, take great pride in their work and work very hard. In many industries it is the union who makes sure that proper training is done and that jobsites remain safe.

And yeah, be realistic, there ARE union jobs that could be done by a chimp. Heck, robots have taken the place of many hard working union members in lots of industries. My point was that some jobs really don't require a union. And that many, unskilled, manufacturing assembly lines could have been saved if the company did not have to deal with all of the extra costs of having to deal with a union. And there are many who are lazy, dragging down productivity, and would not be able to keep their jobs if it were not for unions.

Let the flaming begin! :one:

Sour grapes from a vendor or ex vendor?:roll: Flame on...

Sour grapes from a vendor or ex vendor?:roll: Flame on...
:confused:

Low standards often get set that a chimp could meet and probably do better.

This is the sort of thinking that the press usually writes up. You know the silly stuff that they use to get the public to think that union represented work is easy. The robots that are in the manufacturing sector are, to some people's surprise, programmed by union workers, maintained by union workers and replaced when broken down by union workers. A chimp would not be able to do 8 hrs/day on a line, never mind reprogram a robot's software. Your insults are not need. Most humans that have not tried a line job should try it for a while and see if they can handle it. It's not as easy as you say.
In the year of 1977, the Oshawa plant had 5000 hirings, only 750 stayed. The rest took one look at the line work and headed back out the door to find some other type of work elsewhere. I know this is fact because my father worked in the GM medical centre and he showed me the files of the new hirees and the one's that exited the plant quite hastily. Most do not like what they see.
And towards the dragging down productivity, the line pushed out 550 jobs per shift. That is productivity in auto industry!! At a line speed of 75 jobs /hr, little time is wasted for anything.

Sour grapes from a vendor or ex vendor?:roll: Flame on...

:confused:

Low standards often get set that a chimp could meet and probably do better.

This is the sort of thinking that the press usually writes up. You know the silly stuff that they use to get the public to think that union represented work is easy. The robots that are in the manufacturing sector are, to some people's surprise, programmed by union workers, maintained by union workers and replaced when broken down by union workers. A chimp would not be able to do 8 hrs/day on a line, never mind reprogram a robot's software. Your insults are not need. Most humans that have not tried a line job should try it for a while and see if they can handle it. It's not as easy as you say.
In the year of 1977, the Oshawa plant had 5000 hirings, only 750 stayed. The rest took one look at the line work and headed back out the door to find some other type of work elsewhere. I know this is fact because my father worked in the GM medical centre and he showed me the files of the new hirees and the one's that exited the plant quite hastily. Most do not like what they see.
And towards the dragging down productivity, the line pushed out 550 jobs per shift. That is productivity in auto industry!! At a line speed of 75 jobs /hr, little time is wasted for anything.

And that explains your post about sour grapes how? :roll:

This thread is about splitting GM into a bad and good company for bankruptcy. Not unions. Lets stop ALL flaming and get back to the subject or quit posting in the thread. Thanks.

ANYWAYS I LOVE MY HHR MADE BY NON-UNION WORKERS IN MEXICO(still GM):D