Lewenza's letter. Be sure to see the ratio of imports to exports. Terrible...

http://www.cawlocal.ca/222/uploads/8C797934CDFA40A9B1CB20E1EDCF2E7F_Lewenza_Letter_Ap r_2009.pdf

"If we cut our wages, it's almost like we're agreeing that our wages caused the problem. That is 100% false."

Actually by cutting wages it's more a sign that you are willing to make a sacrifice for the good of the companies future. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little back.

I wish these guys would honestly stop fear mongering their members and actually sit down with company management and work together to produce a viable go-forward plan. Both the unions and management need to make concessions and reorganize for the good of the companies future. If the two sides could work cooperatively and effectively problems could actually be solved and solutions put into place.

Stop focusing on laying blame and start focusing on the future.

These guys sing the same song over and over and the tune never changes.

It's "Not our fault"

I'm also tired of hearing about unfair trade and trade ratios. The US (North American) market is one of the largest and hence attractive markets for companies to sell their vehicles in. The cost of producing vehicles in North America and selling in China, Japan or other places is extremely high and because of that it will limit sales. Also, the domestics do not have the product line to meet the needs of Japanese/Chinese consumers. GM does not produce mini/micro vehicles which are the big sellers in Japan.
The import auto makers are in a better position to export vehicles because they can produce products for their own market but also produce products for the NA market.
I'm all for free trade or fair trade but you can't expect Japanese consumers to buy Malibu or Impala or Silverado sized vehicles when they are accustomed to micro vehicles. You also can't expect a Chinese person to buy a $20,000 (priced here in NA) Malibu when the average yearly wage is approximately that much.

A MODERN PARABLE . .


A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WEREN'T TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.

Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WEREN'T TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.

Yes, from that narrow view it is truly disconcerting. However, let's look at a couple more facts. The Average US all in hourly rate is $76/hour, while Toyota's is $48/hr. I did the math, that's 70% more just for all in labor costs. What about legacy costs for over 500,000 UAW retirees? That adds a huge lump more to the annual cost of the Big3.

Now, those cost camparisons are only for the assembly workers. Let's not get into the disparity of back office operations. That's right. The R&D, Designers, managers and thinkers who work in Japan. All the people who in the Big 3 are in Detroit and other areas while their counterparts in Toyota are overseas. THAT makes a HUGE difference to the bottom line as well.

"Actually by cutting wages it's more a sign that you are willing to make a sacrifice for the good of the companies future. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little back.

I wish these guys would honestly stop fear mongering their members and actually sit down with company management and work together to produce a viable go-forward plan. Both the unions and management need to make concessions and reorganize for the good of the companies future. If the two sides could work cooperatively and effectively problems could actually be solved and solutions put into place.

Stop focusing on laying blame and start focusing on the future."

I agree with you at some point. However, when you see guys like Wagoner run away with a $23 million check in his pocket... you can't really blame them. The workers always get the blame, and in the end, will have to pay for the mistakes/bad decisions of the management. :roll:

Yup the worhers on the line etc. HAVE TO take cut backs while upper management takes hugh salaries with expence accounts and bonuses.
Ask AIG about that.

UAW... how do i say something about them that ISNT pure hatred.

they have nearly killed the domestic automaker...

they're like a bear eating a deer

then asking the deer

"why dont you have more meat!?"

the deer says

"if you stop eating me, i could grow some more!!!"

bear says

"nope"

then starves.

a terribly weak example, but hopefully it expresses how i feel without being pure flame!

UAW... how do i say something about them that ISNT pure hatred.

they have nearly killed the domestic automaker...

they're like a bear eating a deer

then asking the deer

"why dont you have more meat!?"

the deer says

"if you stop eating me, i could grow some more!!!"

bear says

"nope"

then starves.

a terribly weak example, but hopefully it expresses how i feel without being pure flame!


Another that does not understand the pure being of a workforce that does their job yet the rich keep abusing the system that they developed for their own greed. Some just think in the small sense of what the media writes to flame the ignorant. You keep believing what the media writes and follow along like sheep and read all the sensationalism that these reporters spew out so that you can be an authority on the economy...:roll:

No we see what the unions have done through the years to companies and aren't biased by getting the union PR spoon fed to us for our whole working life.

Another that does not understand the pure being of a workforce that does their job yet the rich keep abusing the system that they developed for their own greed. Some just think in the small sense of what the media writes to flame the ignorant. You keep believing what the media writes and follow along like sheep and read all the sensationalism that these reporters spew out so that you can be an authority on the economy...:roll:

Give up, Cokey.....

Every time you post something about the union, you will get adverse reactions from the majority of members here. It has already been documented from previous posts. And I do understand "the pure being of a workforce....". I just don't think any of the THREE sides of this monumental and catastrophic situation really appreciate the other position....or care.

While I like to read views from all sides in a debate, I do realize if a union rep, or for that matter an auto company rep, is making the statements, they tend to be slanted for their personal gain. But, good factual info can be culled from the articles, with a little research.

I think you (as well as all of us) tend to be slanted for your union leadership. But that's a good thing for you. I personally, don't believe the unions have favorably represented the workers in the US (can't speak for Canada). The leaders looked and supported gains that were immediate (much the same as the auto manufacturers) and disregarded the long term. Thus, the industry is in the current position because of these foolish mistakes....again, both sides.

But, I do appreciate the info you post and enjoy reading it.

Oh, one other thing.....and just my opinion. But, most people are not led "as sheep" by the media to their belief of unions. If they did believe the media, they would be supporting the unions. The press, at least in this country, is very liberal and supportive of the labor movement. But when they print articles related to $70/hr (including benefits, holidays, vacation time, etc.) for a fork lift driver at an assembly plant AND the same skill at any other location is half or less than that, will cause some dissension.

The fact of the matter, and I can't directly say the union was a cause.....but every major industry that was union represented has lost the business presence in this country. Think about it.....garments, shoes, optics, cameras, electronics, textiles, furniture, toys, customer related services.....I read the other day, that many radiologists are now reading prints that are transferred electronically, from the US to India. I personally drew a line on financial records. I discovered the CPA I used for 12-15 years, was sending MY RECORDS to an "off shore" company to be "crunched". I now have a new CPA.

My point for the last paragraph.... it has to stop soon, or as the unions and auto manufacturers have done, we will be digging our own graves.

Cokey, I do wish you luck and I do mean that.

Thats becasue the UAW gets zero sympathy form the public at large and those within the ranks simply don't get it.

The letter begins with "through no fault of our own" I did not have to read past that to understand they take zero responsibility for the mess GM is in...LOL They are trying to protect themselves from irate Union members who gave up their individual sovereignty to the UAW to negotiate for them. The BS about Toyota workers getting what they get because of the UAW is just that. Toyota and other domestic metric autoworkers get what they will work for. No more no less. They make far less in total compensation and still they have never gone on or threatened a strike. Apparently they are content and the UAW hates that.

I have some respect for line workers.

i have no respect for the UNIONS.

and I, like most sane, non deluded, non union, human beings will probably never think its okay for someone without a college education to make 40+ dollars an hour. when many honest people are making 15 with a college education.

I have some respect for line workers.

i have no respect for the UNIONS.

and I, like most sane, non deluded, non union, human beings will probably never think its okay for someone without a college education to make 40+ dollars an hour. when many honest people are making 15 with a college education.

There are college and university educated people working on the auto lines and are union members...lol. What a small world some people live in.

There are college and university educated people working on the auto lines and are union members...lol. What a small world some people live in.

There is also a small number of people who have been successful in the business world and never graduated high school.

The point is these people represent a small part of that group and are not the norm.

There are college and university educated people working on the auto lines and are union members...lol. What a small world some people live in.
Its no wonder considering the inflated compensation packages extorted from the Auto companies. An auto worker makes more (made more) than a college Professor!!! LOL. Something is wrong with that picture and it done fell off the wall........

Looks like thay will have to actually use their education now. From what I am reading Michican is suffering a "brain drain" The Educated are leaving for greener pastures leaving the rest behind.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090402/METRO/904020403/Leaving+Michigan+Behind++Eight-year+population+exodus+staggers+state

People are leaving Michigan at a staggering rate. About 109,000 more people left Michigan last year than moved in. It is one of the worst rates in the nation, quadruple the loss of just eight years ago. The state loses a family every 12 minutes, and the families who are leaving -- young, well-educated high-income earners -- are the people the state desperately needs to rebuild.

Yup the worhers on the line etc. HAVE TO take cut backs while upper management takes hugh salaries with expence accounts and bonuses.
Ask AIG about that.


you couldnt say it any better......

it needs to happen from BOTH sides.........

A quarter is not a quarter unless it has both sides..

UAW... how do i say something about them that ISNT pure hatred.

they have nearly killed the domestic automaker...

they're like a bear eating a deer

then asking the deer

"why dont you have more meat!?"

the deer says

"if you stop eating me, i could grow some more!!!"

bear says

"nope"

then starves.

a terribly weak example, but hopefully it expresses how i feel without being pure flame!

lmao i think you hit the nail on the head with that one. unions are killing companies off faster than anything in this country and the union members are too blind to see reality. i find it quite funny to watch the news and see local UNION companies dropping like flies after the company warned the unions for over a year that they can no longer support the crazy wages they demand and the union refuses to listen to them. they are so blind with greed they would rather get $70/hr for a year and put the company under and then have no job than to "struggle" on $50/hr and have a job for life.

What can you do though, the organized crime i mean the union has their members so brain washed that they can not see it until it is too late. Then you get to watch them on the news crying about losing their job because the evil company went bankrupt not because they had no money but because they were evil and did not want to give them another raise lmao!

We have an old steel plant in this area. They make an end product line of steel wire/cable. About 3 or 4 years ago the company told the union, we are a right to work state but they have a union, that they needed to work on some give backs in the new contract or they had to close the plant. The union told the workers to refuse and they did and went on strike. After a month of being on strike and the company talking to them about the problem and them not listening the company closed the plant and went out of business. You should have heard the screaming about ALL the workers losing their jobs and what would they do now.

The plant was sold after being closed 6 months and the new company laid out the rules for the union and started production. Since then they have had to close the plant twice because of economy and the cost of doing business with the union people. They have currently been closed for the last month and are hoping to be able to restart soon but the union guys still haven't figured it out.

We have an old steel plant in this area. They make an end product line of steel wire/cable. About 3 or 4 years ago the company told the union, we are a right to work state but they have a union, that they needed to work on some give backs in the new contract or they had to close the plant. The union told the workers to refuse and they did and went on strike. After a month of being on strike and the company talking to them about the problem and them not listening the company closed the plant and went out of business. You should have heard the screaming about ALL the workers losing their jobs and what would they do now.

The plant was sold after being closed 6 months and the new company laid out the rules for the union and started production. Since then they have had to close the plant twice because of economy and the cost of doing business with the union people. They have currently been closed for the last month and are hoping to be able to restart soon but the union guys still haven't figured it out.

lmao, classic union story right there. i see that same exact story (just insert your local union company name here) at least once every month or so. I love seeing them on the news crying about what will they do now that the mean old company shut down because they were billions in debt from overpaying union workers.

Yup the worhers on the line etc. HAVE TO take cut backs while upper management takes hugh salaries with expence accounts and bonuses.
Ask AIG about that.

Well maybe if you could spell you might have an executive job making a huge salary.:p:....I'd say the shop floor sweeper at GM is making a huge salary.

AIG is an example of the country going Marxist.....

Lets see.... go back and re write a clause in the contract allowing for the distribution of bonuses to certain employees in early 2009....The when the bonuses are distributed legally via contract AND a special amendment to the government bailout bill, the "surprised" Administration goes after the recipients who received the bonuses and threatens to release their names and bus tours are conducted to their homes....DESPITE the fact that Chris Dodd lied about having anything to do with the rewrite then a day later recanted........The government ALLOWED for the bonuses with a special edict. This is like a CEO signing a toxic labor contract then whining about profits.

Yeah just like AIG.......

Another that does not understand the pure being of a workforce that does their job yet the rich keep abusing the system that they developed for their own greed. Some just think in the small sense of what the media writes to flame the ignorant. You keep believing what the media writes and follow along like sheep and read all the sensationalism that these reporters spew out so that you can be an authority on the economy...:roll:

Very interesting...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aazS4bEfFmzs&refer=home

Very interesting...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aazS4bEfFmzs&refer=home

Yes it is, there is much at risk here. It may mean a more larger scale to the recovery to the recession. Lost jobs and lost pensions will undoubtably affect a recovery forecast.

Well maybe if you could spell you might have an executive job making a huge salary.:p:....I'd say the shop floor sweeper at GM is making a huge salary.

AIG is an example of the country going Marxist.....

Lets see.... go back and re write a clause in the contract allowing for the distribution of bonuses to certain employees in early 2009....The when the bonuses are distributed legally via contract AND a special amendment to the government bailout bill, the "surprised" Administration goes after the recipients who received the bonuses and threatens to release their names and bus tours are conducted to their homes....DESPITE the fact that Chris Dodd lied about having anything to do with the rewrite then a day later recanted........The government ALLOWED for the bonuses with a special edict. This is like a CEO signing a toxic labor contract then whining about profits.

Yeah just like AIG.......

I won't be taking spelling lessons from you, thats for sure!

Not taking sides here, but if you made a deal, be true to it. A contract is a contract.

Not taking sides here, but if you made a deal, be true to it. A contract is a contract.

True but when it comes time for a new contract sometimes the terms have to change on existing items due to the current situation. The unions, for the most part in the past, have not been willing to consider changing the terms on existing items.

I agree with that 09 Panel. Flexability and barganing is required.

A friend of mine worked for Firestone. He was at the main plant and there was a problem with a southern U.S. plant. So his boss says “Let’s fly down in the company jet and sort this out”. They got to the southern airport where a limo was waiting to pick them up. After about one hour in a meeting they had the problem sorted out and headed back. My friend mixed some drinks from the bar on the private jet and said to his boss, “That could have been fixed with a phone call.” His boss replied “But I like to Fly.” My friend said “Yes, but we could of saved the company a lot of money.” To which his boss said “You don’t understand, I said I like to fly.”

I guess that’s a good enough reason for the guys on the line to take a pay cut.

A friend of mine worked for Firestone. He was at the main plant and there was a problem with a southern U.S. plant. So his boss says “Let’s fly down in the company jet and sort this out”. They got to the southern airport where a limo was waiting to pick them up. After about one hour in a meeting they had the problem sorted out and headed back. My friend mixed some drinks from the bar on the private jet and said to his boss, “That could have been fixed with a phone call.” His boss replied “But I like to Fly.” My friend said “Yes, but we could of saved the company a lot of money.” To which his boss said “You don’t understand, I said I like to fly.”

I guess that’s a good enough reason for the guys on the line to take a pay cut.


lol, how long have you been in the union? :roll:

I'd say the shop floor sweeper at GM is making a huge salary.


There aren't any sweepers left in GM. All those jobs have been outsourced for at least 2 years. I know because Oshawa plant was the last 1 to have them. Been there and seen them go.

lol, how long have you been in the union? :roll:

The thing is I'm not in "the" union and I don't like unions at all. When you hear the stories that go on in factories etc, and I've heard them from both sides, you make up your own mind. I agree the unions go too far with their demands but management are not angels either. All you hear on the news is it's the workers on the line that is at fault. Lets hear both sides. My father was a police officer for 35 years and he had a saying. There is 3 sides to every story,( and I'll adjust it for this topic) the union side, the management side and the truth. There has been a lot of support for management on here, lets hear it from the other side for a change.

unfortunatley there will only be three sides,if your union youll speak for the union, if your management youll speak for the management, if youve never worked for either then youll hate both or one or the other.what ive noticed on here( and its unfortunate)most opinions about any labor force is based on stories handed down from news or a jilted employee or someone who had a bad experience.ive worked with all three. and if given the spotlight on all of them, each group could be branded. take a job your working at and i bet their at least one or more times that someone could say was not their proudest moment and would not like others to see it. lets build each other up and not down. isnt there enough crap tearing this country down instead of us adding fuel?:thumb:

There aren't any sweepers left in GM. All those jobs have been outsourced for at least 2 years. I know because Oshawa plant was the last 1 to have them. Been there and seen them go.

interesting ..I wonder if they are still UAW though even though a separate company pays them...It is my understanding the The UAW organized a lot of vendors too,

interesting ..I wonder if they are still UAW though even though a separate company pays them...It is my understanding the The UAW organized a lot of vendors too,

To my knowledge, here in Canada they are non union. $10-$12/hr.:roll:

unfortunatley there will only be three sides,if your union youll speak for the union, if your management youll speak for the management, if youve never worked for either then youll hate both or one or the other.what ive noticed on here( and its unfortunate)most opinions about any labor force is based on stories handed down from news or a jilted employee or someone who had a bad experience.ive worked with all three. and if given the spotlight on all of them, each group could be branded. take a job your working at and i bet their at least one or more times that someone could say was not their proudest moment and would not like others to see it. lets build each other up and not down. isnt there enough crap tearing this country down instead of us adding fuel?:thumb:

The way it should be.:thumb:

I won't be taking spelling lessons from you, thats for sure!Oh,now we have the spelling police on the forum.Did you actually count the mistakes?

unfortunatley there will only be three sides,if your union youll speak for the union, if your management youll speak for the management, if youve never worked for either then youll hate both or one or the other.what ive noticed on here( and its unfortunate)most opinions about any labor force is based on stories handed down from news or a jilted employee or someone who had a bad experience.ive worked with all three. And if given the spotlight on all of them, each group could be branded. Take a job your working at and i bet their at least one or more times that someone could say was not their proudest moment and would not like others to see it. Lets build each other up and not down. Isnt there enough crap tearing this country down instead of us adding fuel?:thumb:good post!

Well my Union time was at the Hoover Company.

Every day it was the Union on one side and managment on the other.

The employees were in the middle and were left in the lerch by both most of the time. The managment would tell you little and the Union would just tell us we were always getting screwed.

Managment there never screwed me but the union rules of bumping you from your job even if your were doing better work got me laid off.

Hoover like what I did but I got a better job and refused to go back.

The company I work for now is not perfect but has do much better to me than about any other company in the area would be. We are a large company owned by one man. Even with several thousand employees the managment knows who I am and can call me by my first name on site as most employees there.

They have sent me on trips to fun places and let me meet and do things I never thought I would get to do.

I am by no means a big shot at this company but I feel I have been treated as one.

Even in hard times as they are we have yet to ever have a layoff in 40 plus years. It is a tribute to the owner and the way managment treats us.

The Teamsters tired to come in and the vote was not even close.

While there may be a time and place for a union there are time and places we could do better without.

Again I am no fan of the bloated UAW but I wil be the first to say they are only 1/3 at blaime here for GM. GM managment has shot them selves enougth and they should have hard lined the UAW yerars ago as all they did is empower them to be what they became. I think a much better working relation ship could have benifited both if GM would have stopped the UAW rampage over the years.

To my knowledge, here in Canada they are non union. $10-$12/hr.:roll:

$10 -$12/hour to sweep floors?!?!?!
I wonder how they deal with all the stress?

Does anyone else have a problem with this?
What does a McDonalds employee make these days?

$10 -$12/hour to sweep floors?!?!?!
I wonder how they deal with all the stress?

Does anyone else have a problem with this?
What does a McDonalds employee make these days?

$10 to $12 seems about right. If he was stating those numbers for sweepers at the Oshawa plant I would believe them. I think minimum wage on Ontario is around $9 an hour now, or so.

Here in Alberta, McDonalds jobs typically start between $9 and $10 an hour. There is a 7-11/Esso station just down the street from me that is hiring right now and their sign out front says the starting pay is $12 an hour.

For those that don't realize what a sweeper does in a GM plant, they do sweep floors. They also clean paint ovens(chemical training, safety procedures, dangerous chemicals being used), clean spray booths(grates are cleaned with lye, extremely high pressure water guns), blood spills(special training), fuel spills(special training with fire Dept.), electrical supply room cleaning(more training with electricians), and for those that sit on their butts all day, they also clean offices(ie. floor stripping, resealing and upkeep). There is more to just a sweeper than some think. I wonder if a chimp could this type of work.:lol::lol::lol: I've watched them do most of this.

For those that don't realize what a sweeper does in a GM plant, they do sweep floors. They also clean paint ovens(chemical training, safety procedures, dangerous chemicals being used), clean spray booths(grates are cleaned with lye, extremely high pressure water guns), blood spills(special training), fuel spills(special training with fire Dept.), electrical supply room cleaning(more training with electricians), and for those that sit on their butts all day, they also clean offices(ie. floor stripping, resealing and upkeep). There is more to just a sweeper than some think. I wonder if a chimp could this type of work.:lol::lol::lol: I've watched them do most of this.

I know a Chimp can do it but there are some humans I question their ablilities to do all that let alone show up everyday.:lol:

have you ever seen a union employee through poop at you while hes sweeping?:lol::roflol:

have you ever seen a union employee through poop at you while hes sweeping?:lol::roflol:

You ever been to Lordstown?:lol:

have you ever seen a union employee through poop at you while hes sweeping?:lol::roflol:

At least all sweepers must have a Grade 12 or better education. And they also know how to spell "throw" not "through". Some replies should be more educated than others.:roll::roll::roll: