Edmunds Inside Line ^ | 04-23-2009 | Daniel Pund



DETROIT — According to a source at General Motors, the company will announce next Monday its new "faster, deeper" reorganization plan, which will likely include a death sentence for the Pontiac brand.

Inside Line called Tom Wilkinson, news relations PR man for General Motors, who said: "There's nothing I can share with you at this time. Keep your eyes on our media site. Officially, nothing has changed with Pontiac's niche-brand status, until you hear differently."

The one-time "Excitement" division and creator of legends such as the GTO and Firebird was relegated to "niche" or "specialty" brand status by General Motors in its first viability plan in December of last year.

The company toyed with competing proposals to either turn the brand into GM's version of Scion or to make Pontiac a very focused purveyor of performance cars based around the critically well-received G8. But ultimately, Pontiac was chosen as the easiest to kill since it was cut from GM's self-defined herd of four "core brands," Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick. Most Pontiac franchises have already been combined with Buick and GMC.

If true, Pontiac will join Saab, Saturn and Hummer as brands that will not survive GM's current troubles — at least not as a component of General Motors.


As the owner of a '57 Chieftain 2-dr. sedan, this is extremely troubling.

even though i always considered myself a "ford person" , i always liked pontiacs , buicks , caddys , and gmcs. they allways were the "special" chevy products , the ones that the factory had spent more time on. my stepgrandfather was the grandfather that i spent the most time with. he loved and woudn't own anything but a buick. he had 1 of the 1st v8s , a 1953 and drove it every day until he died in early 80s. the fastest car i ever rode in was a 69 gto. i was just checking out a g6 coupe today , and thining how nice it looked.

At least I got my 65 Goat lol

Got two Pontiacs in the garage.

I will be the first to admit Pontiac died a while back and GM just never admited it.

The only two cars they have are the Solstice and G8 that have any real performance.

This is horrible... I love my Pontiacs. I currently own my fourth Grand Prix.:(

Pontiac is the "sexy" brand... what it needs is an investment....
kill saturn
kill buick(please!)

but dont take away the last brand GM has that says "hey, we want everyone to have a lil' flair"

they do that, they'll be ford... and as good as a ford is. it bores the hell out of me... and i will never own one.

The problem is this - they have too many cars competing against each other.
Caddy - Only the CTS, possibly the DTS
Chevy - Trucks and economy cars
Buick - Rename the Lucerne the Electra, and the LaCrosse
GMC - HIgh end SUV's and Trucks
Pontiac - G8, improved Solstice

Get rid of every other brand. They never should have killed Olds or started Saturn.

Pontiac is the "sexy" brand... what it needs is an investment....
kill saturn
kill buick(please!)

but dont take away the last brand GM has that says "hey, we want everyone to have a lil' flair"

they do that, they'll be ford... and as good as a ford is. it bores the hell out of me... and i will never own one.


Buick is the only american made car that consistently meet the JD power customer survey for customer satisfaction and, does that almost every year.

Kill Buick? GM won't do that, for sure.

Pontiac is the "sexy" brand... what it needs is an investment....
kill saturn
kill buick(please!)

but dont take away the last brand GM has that says "hey, we want everyone to have a lil' flair"

they do that, they'll be ford... and as good as a ford is. it bores the hell out of me... and i will never own one.

Here is what the reasons are.

#1 GM has no money for investment and Pontiac is critically damages.

#2 All cars sold in the US market will have to be sold globally. Cadillac, Chevy and Buick already are and GMC will also be soon. Only two Pontiacs are sold else where as a Opel/Solstice and G8/Holden.

#3 Buick is being saved because it is sold in China. They have very good models there that can be build and sold here with no changes. Ig they fail they kill Buick too but there will be little to no investment so it would be little to no risk. If they fail they continue to sell in China. If they invest in Pontiac and they fail GM loses all the money and investment.

#4 GMC is being savesd as they are one of the most profitable divisions. THey sell very well and with minnor changes to a Chevy they make a greater profit.

Pontiac started to lose their identity back in 1979 and it lost more and more. Right now they really only have two true perfromance models.

I am a Pontiac fan but now drive a HHR SS as I wanted a peformance car with a 4 cylinder turbo. I could not get it at Pontiac witt more than two seats.

It is sad but GM has only so much money and need to invest into the lines that had some hope of showing a profit in the near future. Most of Pontiac G6 and G5 sales were low profit fleet sales. The G8 and Solstice are low volume. The Vibe is not even a GM car. They already have near a two year supply of G3 Pontiac's a car they should have never built as a Pontiac.

This is a time to think with you head not your heart. Pontiac in truth should have closed when Olds did and Saturn for all they did with is should have been never started.

GM lost so much market share they can no longer support so many lines or models. When they help a larger share the volume would cover them.

GM will file for Bankruptcy soon and will be split into to GM corperations form reports. THe key now is to save Chevy and Cadillac as they are the ones most in the public will consider and are the ones worth any great investment.

I love Pontiac too but I see no way out for Pontiac with no great investment. Add to that the poor odds that those investments would not pay off. The save move is to make a better Chevy and Cadillac and rebuild a low risk Buck. Besides all three divisions aleady sell in China and are expected to remain as the top sellers in China. GM is making all sort of money there.

I understand...

but i want a camaro based trans am SO BADLY!!!

Cant we just have one?

Pontiac was always GM's experimental car.
Remember the Fiero? (I kinda miss that doughnut machine actually).

I wonder what will happen to the Vibe?

that is sad..we absolutely love our Torrent GXP and I want a G8

Actually Pontiac was started as what GM called a companion marque.

The Pontiac brand was introduced by General Motors in 1926 as the 'companion' marque to GM's Oakland Motor Car line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac#History

All of the major brands had a companion marque, sort of a step up. You can't afford a Oakland get a Pontiac and get the Oakland the next time.

The interesting this is all the companion marques failed as did some of the step up brands except for Pontiac.

The Vibe is a Toyota, and will live on as the Matrix.

My Grandmother had Pontiacs... a '50, a '56 and, my favorite, a '60 Ventura. My Dad "helped" her order it. He he... It was a black two-door hardtop, with the 389, a four-bbl carb, dual exhausts, and posi-traction. It was a king-sized GTO four years before the fact!

We all loved that car. I was 13 when my Grandmother sold it. ***sniff***

I guess I'd better start getting all the parts I can for my 41 coupe.:lol::D

I just don't understand why they would kill Pontiac and not GMC? GMC is a duplicate brand!! Besides, at least around here in the mid-west, you see Pontiacs everywhere! I thought the G6 was one of GM's best selling cars?

I think Pontiac sales are the lowest of the main core divisions.

As for GMC, I think GM should keep GMC and let the Buick/GMC dealers sell them and stop selling trucks through the Chevy dealers. I'm sure GM sells many more Chevys than Buicks and they need to give the Buick dealers something to sell.

If they close a bunch of dealers then the per dealer sales should increase at Chevy and they could afford to let the Buick/GMC dealers have the trucks and have 2 sets of dealers that can survive.

GMC make profit and make a big profit per unit sold. It is one of the most profitable division GM has.

They take a Chevy truck add a few small cosmetic changes and charge a higher price on a already profitable line.

Pontiac is not making much profit and with cutting fleet sales of the G5 and G6 it will take a real hit this year in profits. With out fleet sales the G6 is dead in the water. Fleet sales have killed GP prices and will kill resale on G6 too.

How many here have bought a Pontiac in the last 8 years new? Not many. I have and had to move to Chevy to get my performance fix.

I understand...

but i want a camaro based trans am SO BADLY!!!

Cant we just have one?

Nope as the Camaro alone will have a hard time meeting its needed sales volume even under a good economy. [They need 100,000 units per year].

Having a sister TA would just cost more money to develope and for the most part just rob Camaro sales.

...
Get rid of every other brand. They never should have killed Olds or started Saturn.

Bought my last Olds in 2003 (granted it is a Silhouette, but its the family car), and it has been almost trouble free for 100,000 miles.

Funny or odd thing is, in the year or two before Olds was killed, they had several new models or very recently updated models.

Same thing with Saturn today-the "oldest" model is probably the Aura (three years old now). As a division, Saturn probably has the newest lineup, yet it is getting killed off.

As for Pontiac, I briefly considered an '07 Grand Prix, but decided an HHR would be more fun. My cousin had an '72 Le Mans - that was an awesome muscle car. The last decade or so, they have been sorta lame-and most recently with dumb names G*. Chevy could cherry pick the Vibe (replace or position above the Aveo), or better yet the G8 as the "new" Impala.

Quote: Buick is the only american made car that consistently meet the JD power customer survey for customer satisfaction and, does that almost every year.

Kill Buick? GM won't do that, for sure.[/QUOTE]


It's hard to break a car that never exceeds 45mph! Look around folks, the Buicks are owned by the very aged and they just are too paranoid not to follow their dealers advise with earlier than normal servicing. No damn wonder they are rated so high, you gotta drive a car to break it.

As for the death of Pontiac, there will never be another company with the drive for the younger market like they did through the years. Their focus was always on performance and not trying to please the blue-hairs. Sure they had the wagons and sedans, but the things were solid and fast. The best thing about the old Pontiacs is that never seem to run out of steam. We had a '66 Bonneville ragtop when I was growing up and my older brother and I took that beast down a two lane highway until the speedo needle disappeared into the lower trim. God I miss those days........

Pontiacs I have owned:

1969 LeMans
1991 Grand Prix GTP
1993 SSEi Bonneville
1998 SSE Bonneville

Loved all of them. Great cars and great styling.

Pontiac Trivia:

Who knows the one single thing that has almost always distinguished a Pontiac from other brands?

Split grille?

My family has only owned 2 Pontiacs, and I will say they don't seem to be the world's greatest cars...

We had a 2000 Grand Prix, that was JUNK! But we found out later that we did literally buy it from a junk yard unintentionally...so maybe that's why that was bad.

My mom's current G6 is a decent car, but seems somewhat cheeply made. We hardly ever use the back doors in the car, and the one day I was getting out, the door handle came out in my hand. They didn't bolt it in in the factory. I've had the weatherstripping fall out while washing it, and plastic panels down by the shifter have fallen out a couple times while driving. Nice looking little car, but it has it's flaws... Oh, and it gets nowhere near the 33mpg it's supposed to..

But I still don't think Pontiac should go!

Split grille?

Split grille only dates back to the 1950's I believe.

Is it the Native American themed logo?

Olds and Saturn improvments came much too late. People did not come to buy as they were not conviced of the improvments.

Note the G8 would be branded as a Caprice if anyting. Holden already sells it in the middle east as a Caprice so building that would be very easy.

Note Impala sales are still good with the cheap prices and fleet sales so it will remain on the W chassie for a while. GM would like to replace it with a new enlarged Epsilon 2.

With car sales so stagnet it will be interesting if they will shift any models or not.

The G8 is profitable and needed at Holden to keep volume up. GM can import them in small numbers and make money on them. They would be crazy to not do it but it depends on what they can afford.

The other question is if they kill Pontiac on Monday how long will it take to close it down too. If could be anything from weeks to years.

Split grille?

We have a winner! See admin for prize payout.

A hardy handshake and a Hi Ho Silver??? :lol:

This is a cool site on Pontiacs. Looks like the split grille goes back at least to 1929.

http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Pontiac/

We have a winner! See admin for prize payout.

that reminds me of the old tv commercial , where they hit the pontiac front bumper with a sledge hammer.:cool:and it shows no damage:cool:....... also i forgot , the first car i ever drove was a 1974 4d delta 88. i bought my 67 mustang the day i turned 16 , but my dad wouldn't let me drive it.:(......so i i took that delta "down thru there". he couldn't keep a rear tire on it:lol:....also i would put it in low 1, floor it and never touch the the shift lever...around 45-65 mph it would change into 2nd by itself , and burn the tire when it did it:thumb: ... yea , i miss them days also:(

I agree with the statement about the buick being for the dust fart set...

and i dont really think the cost of a trans am would take anything from chevy, its a differant aesthetic treatment for basically the same vehicle...

but you cant slap a big firebird sticker on a camaro hood!

Ok now name the one Pontiac that did not have the twin grill theme since 1959.

Hint: It's not the Fiero GT as it still had the twin intake in the bumper.

Bonus name all three models of this Pontiac.

I agree with the statement about the buick being for the dust fart set...

and i dont really think the cost of a trans am would take anything from chevy, its a differant aesthetic treatment for basically the same vehicle...

but you cant slap a big firebird sticker on a camaro hood!

It is not the product Buick has now but the product they will have soon. The new lecrosse is more Lexus even with a AWD option. It is not my Fathers Buick. So don't judge them by the present models as they are on the way out. Also the Opel Insignia will be a new Buick too. It is already set to be offered in Europe as a twin turbo 320 HP V6. Some feel it will be here too.

The people who feel the TA would take away from the Camaro are GM marketing people. They know how the past cars and buyer demographics went and the bird has always robbed sales. I know the past marketing manager of the F body and he made it clear there was just not enough market room for two nearly identical based cars in todays markets.

The bottom line was only one would get approved and Chevy sells more cars.

I always like the TA more but the public as a whole has always bought more Camaro's.

Ok now name the one Pontiac that did not have the twin grill theme since 1959.

Hint: It's not the Fiero GT as it still had the twin intake in the bumper.

Bonus name all three models of this Pontiac.


Is it the Pontiac Acadian? AKA: Chevette?

Is it the Pontiac Acadian? AKA: Chevette?


Please keep it to American market Pontiac based cars.

Dang it! I was looking through Wikipedia at the different Pontiac cars over time, and that was the only one I noticed!! :lol: Guess I'll have to keep looking!!! he he he

(Naw...I'll let someone else take a shot!)

1st Generation Pontiac Sunbird

1st Generation Pontiac Sunbird

Nope had a Trans Am beak.

Think Bigger much bigger.

Beg to differ

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/DSCN1367b.jpg/675px-DSCN1367b.jpg

Beg to differ

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/DSCN1367b.jpg/675px-DSCN1367b.jpg

Look at the bumper... To the left of the "Pontiac". I think that would count technically....

What would count?? All I see is a single openings, I don'[t see any vertical splits.

Ok now name the one Pontiac that did not have the twin grill theme since 1959.

Hint: It's not the Fiero GT as it still had the twin intake in the bumper.

Bonus name all three models of this Pontiac.

How about Parisienne, (I want to say '83-'86). Sedan/ Base wagon/ Brougham

First thing that comes to mind....Tempest. But I could be wrong.:red:

It was the 1960 model Pontiacs that lacked the split grille.Bonneville,Catalina, and Ventura.

What would count?? All I see is a single openings, I don'[t see any vertical splits.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/jgonzal1987/pontiacsplit.png

It's hard to break a car that never exceeds 45mph!

Tell that to the proud owners of these beauties.

http://www.motorcities.com/media/image/640/05I6N485917338C/1987-Buick-GNX-black-C-640.jpeg

My dad once owned a 1970 Buick GSX, just like the one in the following link.

http://www.classiccar.com/photopost/data/531/medium/1970_Buick_GSX_coupe.jpg


It's hard to break a car that never exceeds 145mph!

Corrected that for you! :D

It was the 1960 model Pontiacs that lacked the split grille.Bonneville,Catalina, and Ventura.

http://www.chevyhhr.net/gallery/files/4/8/6/5/60PontiacBonneville.jpg

Looks split to me. Some had more meat between the grilles than others.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f211/jgonzal1987/pontiacsplit.png

:thumb:

Beg to differ

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/DSCN1367b.jpg/675px-DSCN1367b.jpg

Sorry Pontiac considers the split in the bumper intake opening as the traditional split. It is smaller but similar to the Fiero GT of the same era.

Besides that was not as first gen either.

I don't make the rules this is was a Trivia question at a Pontiac meet.

It was the 1960 model Pontiacs that lacked the split grille.Bonneville,Catalina, and Ventura.

We have a winner :thumb:

Agree or not that was the answer they gave us at the Pontiac meet and I know several Pontiac history books that also point out the 1960 as the only true American Pontiac that was split grill less.

Pontiac did make it very low key on some models but in the interpritation of Pontiac it was there.

Doing trivia was better than dwelling on the demise!

Doing trivia was better than dwelling on the demise!

X2 :thumb:

Hearing more of this in the news today reminded me I still had not posted on this one. I think it is because it is such a sad day for me... :( I thought it was bad when the discontinued the Firebird, but this really is unreal...

I have owned more Pontiacs than any other make car. It was my first car as well. My favorite is my 70 Formula of course. This gives me all that much more incentive to get cracking on that project! :cool:

I'll list 'em here in the order that I bought them- (with descriptions!)



'71 Lemans T-37 350 2bbl :smile: (1st car, $150 from local farmer!)

'70 Catalina 400 4bbl :eek: (this car was a total sleeper, top-end aprox 140mph!)

'73 Firebird Formula 350 2bbl :thumb: (great fun till she rusted apart, still have it as a parts car)

'69 Executive 400 4bbl :beer: (huge car, great for road trips! The racoon tail on the antenna was so cool!)

'82 Trans Am 5.0L :cool: :steering: (man, did I love driving this car and it was mint!)

'80 Formula 5.0L :p: (looked nice when wet, paint was Florida baked!)

'87 6000 SE Wagon 2.8L :lol: (the family truckster, with woodgrain sides!)

'70 Formula 400 4bbl :one: (stole this one at just $2,500! It is a real tire-baker for sure!)

'95 Grand Am 2.5L :bye: (rear-end crash totalled by day-dreaming idiot...)

'93 Grand Am 2.4L :nono: (bought this one for son, lots of problems...)

'96 Grand Prix 3.1L :eek: (bought this one for daughter, she totalled it in 6mo.)

'00 Grand Prix 3.1L :roll: (nice looking car, but had it share of problems also)

Ahh yes... lotsa memories for sure!

Got two Pontiacs in the garage.

I will be the first to admit Pontiac died a while back and GM just never admited it.

The only two cars they have are the Solstice and G8 that have any real performance.

As much as it hurts to admit, its true. The only two Pontiacs I'd consider spending money on. And frankly, these two cars can be sold under the Chevrolet/Bucik/Cadillac brand. After all, isn't that what many of our beloved marques have become over the years? Badges on the same car?

Already dead.

And I bleed Chevy Orange. It hurts.

As much as it hurts to admit, its true. The only two Pontiacs I'd consider spending money on. And frankly, these two cars can be sold under the Chevrolet/Bucik/Cadillac brand. After all, isn't that what many of our beloved marques have become over the years? Badges on the same car?

Already dead.

And I bleed Chevy Orange. It hurts.


Remove two doors, and the G8 could be rebadged as a Buick Riviera. :nuts::D

Oh and now I miss my 95 Riviera. I swear the 3.8L V6 with a supercharger was a match made in heaven....

OH, and my idea for the week, a Solstice with the GM truck Inline 6. For the people who are afraid of turbos...

</end of day dreaming>

I am bewildered as to why GM would kill Pontiac but spare Buick. Is the market for boring old people cars (and I'm 51 by the way) that superior to performance vehicles?

They are approaching this entirely wrong in my opinion. Instead of having four or five versions of the same vehicle from each division, just offer the vehicle in one format. Why do we need the Acadia in addition to the Traverse, along with whatever the Buick and Saturn versions (their names escape me at the moment - you can tell those versions have not made much of an impression on me.) Why does Chevy need the Equinox, the Traverse and the TrailBlazer. To me they are half-steps up from one another and you don't need that much diversity among similar vehicles produced by the same division. Why do you need the redundancy between Chevy Trucks and GMC trucks? To me the only difference is the grilles and tail-lights.

Chevy ought to build the Corvette, Camaro, Malibu, HHR and TrailBlazer.

If GMC was not eliminated, it should build the full size Pickups and SUVs. Otherwise, let Chevy build them. Also, GMC could build the Acadia. If not, the Traverse from Chevy should be the only offering of that platform.

Buick should build the Lucerne and Lacrosse. Nothing more.

Pontiac should build the Soltice and (import) the G8. Nothing more.

Cadillac should build the CTS and STS. Nothing more.

If Saturn survives, it should only build the Aura and perhaps the Sky.

That's my opinion on the subject of GM's management.

i get the reasoning... but until this year, buying myself a black trans am convertible was my carrot for after i finished college... albeit thats still a few years out... it was just a plan i made when i saw the new camaro platform...

well that, and I started to hate chrysler after they ruined the new wrangler by not giving it an engine.(that actually works)

this is still so depressing...
if i had a choice, i would keep chevy caddilac and pontiac,

anything that feels like a buick, could feel like a cadillac
anything that feels like a saturn or GMC, could easily be a chevy.
and anything sporty or youthful could be/stay pontiac.

again, i understand where they're coming from...

but, maybe like family guy... one day it could come back?

I am bewildered as to why GM would kill Pontiac but spare Buick. Is the market for boring old people cars (and I'm 51 by the way) that superior to performance vehicles?

They are approaching this entirely wrong in my opinion. Instead of having four or five versions of the same vehicle from each division, just offer the vehicle in one format. Why do we need the Acadia in addition to the Traverse, along with whatever the Buick and Saturn versions (their names escape me at the moment - you can tell those versions have not made much of an impression on me.) Why does Chevy need the Equinox, the Traverse and the TrailBlazer. To me they are half-steps up from one another and you don't need that much diversity among similar vehicles produced by the same division. Why do you need the redundancy between Chevy Trucks and GMC trucks? To me the only difference is the grilles and tail-lights.

Chevy ought to build the Corvette, Camaro, Malibu, HHR and TrailBlazer.

If GMC was not eliminated, it should build the full size Pickups and SUVs. Otherwise, let Chevy build them. Also, GMC could build the Acadia. If not, the Traverse from Chevy should be the only offering of that platform.

Buick should build the Lucerne and Lacrosse. Nothing more.

Pontiac should build the Soltice and (import) the G8. Nothing more.

Cadillac should build the CTS and STS. Nothing more.

If Saturn survives, it should only build the Aura and perhaps the Sky.

That's my opinion on the subject of GM's management.

You forget the Cobalt (Cruze), which is GM's bread and butter.

IMHO, here's what GM will look like when the dust settles (at least here in Canada).

Some GM dealers will sell:

Buick
GMC (will build all GM trucks)

The other GM dealers will sell

Chevrolet
Cadillac

In the end, money $$$$$ will dictate what brands GM will retain, not our personal feelings.:roll:

I love my HHR, but, in a 5 minute search, I can still find 5 unsold 2008 HHR SS in a 200 mile area from Quebec city (and one exactly like mine, + remote start but has an all black interior). The dealer where I purchased my HHR has about 20 HHR LS LT 2009 on the lot.

Do I think the HHR will survive the current GM turmoil? Unfortunately, NO. :roll: If only the customers would buy the HHRs, then they would know how cool and useful this Lil truck is. :D

I am bewildered as to why GM would kill Pontiac but spare Buick. Is the market for boring old people cars (and I'm 51 by the way) that superior to performance vehicles?

They are approaching this entirely wrong in my opinion. Instead of having four or five versions of the same vehicle from each division, just offer the vehicle in one format. Why do we need the Acadia in addition to the Traverse, along with whatever the Buick and Saturn versions (their names escape me at the moment - you can tell those versions have not made much of an impression on me.) Why does Chevy need the Equinox, the Traverse and the TrailBlazer. To me they are half-steps up from one another and you don't need that much diversity among similar vehicles produced by the same division. Why do you need the redundancy between Chevy Trucks and GMC trucks? To me the only difference is the grilles and tail-lights.

Chevy ought to build the Corvette, Camaro, Malibu, HHR and TrailBlazer.

If GMC was not eliminated, it should build the full size Pickups and SUVs. Otherwise, let Chevy build them. Also, GMC could build the Acadia. If not, the Traverse from Chevy should be the only offering of that platform.

Buick should build the Lucerne and Lacrosse. Nothing more.

Pontiac should build the Soltice and (import) the G8. Nothing more.

Cadillac should build the CTS and STS. Nothing more.

If Saturn survives, it should only build the Aura and perhaps the Sky.

That's my opinion on the subject of GM's management.

Here is the rerported plan from what I have heard.

Caddy will be at least a 3 car divison with SUV of several sizes. RWD will remain as will the AWD option.

Chevy will be the value leader and offer a wide range of cars not just avaiable here but world wide.

Buick will get a lot of new product and it will be in the Lexus/Audi class. The new cars will not be old cars for th boring. The new Lacrosse will offer over 260 HP with AWD in a very classy car. I saw one and it is not like old car in any way. THey will also get sever other models one is planned on the Opel Insignia a very very good car already offered with a 320 twin turbo V6. If Buick fails millions of buyers in China will pick up the slack. That is why they live.

Cars like the G8 can be converted into ta Caprice as it is already sold as in the middle east. Not a big task to change and it can be sold here at a low Volume and make a profit.

The Solstice and Sky ? It could live on in the new Alpha platform but with the sales volume they have and they up and down cycle of the 2 seat market it may not live fast 2012=2014.

The Alpha progeam needs to be watched as the RWD platform could created many cool cars. Time will tell.

Oh GMC will make a profit as follow Chevys lead.

I think gm's operations as a whole would be better than they are now ( obviously) if they were never involved with saturn, hummer to begin with.

Im going to miss pontiac,if they decide to get rid of it. My dad had a '67 gto & i have had 2 t/a's '82 & '84.

You forget the Cobalt (Cruze), which is GM's bread and butter.

IMHO, here's what GM will look like when the dust settles (at least here in Canada).

Some GM dealers will sell:

Buick
GMC (will build all GM trucks)

The other GM dealers will sell

Chevrolet
Cadillac

In the end, money $$$$$ will dictate what brands GM will retain, not our personal feelings.:roll:

I love my HHR, but, in a 5 minute search, I can still find 5 unsold 2008 HHR SS in a 200 mile area from Quebec city (and one exactly like mine, + remote start but has an all black interior). The dealer where I purchased my HHR has about 20 HHR LS LT 2009 on the lot.

Do I think the HHR will survive the current GM turmoil? Unfortunately, NO. :roll: If only the customers would buy the HHRs, then they would know how cool and useful this Lil truck is. :D

Yeah, I realized I forgot the Cobalt/Cruze and also the "Volt" but I was too tired/lazy to go back and edit the post.

With regard to your comment on being able to find 5 unsold 2008 HHR SS within a 200 mile radius, I know what you're saying. In metro Atlanta, there is only 1 unsold new 2008 HHR SS, but there are quite a few unsold 2009 HHR SS's within a 100 mile radius. I currently have a 2004 Pontiac GTO which I bought new in January 2005, and which I enjoy very much. However, when the GTOs came out in 2004, they couldn't give them away, and I will never understand why. The only thing I can attribute it to is that the automotive media trashed it for looking too "bland" and the lemmings in the general public allowed themselves to miss out on a great car because some idiots in the press, with their mindless, profound loyalty to all cars German and Japanese, decided it was bland looking. It looks good to me, and lots of people give it a second look as I am driving down the street. I get lots of thumbs ups from people walking by and driving by. Obviously, it's not too bland. Similarly, for whatever reason, people don't buy the HHR SS and they sit on dealer lots. With GM's upcoming "recovery" efforts, I am really afraid that they will stop making cars like the HHR SS before I am ready to buy another car for myself.

I would love to have a Chevy HHR SS, but I simply don't "need," at this point to trade the GTO in, and I cannot justify having two personal vehicles for myself. I cannot even convince my wife to get rid of her 2000 Altima GLE with nearly 120,000 miles on it; so I cannot in good conscience have two newer cars for myself while she drives around a nine year old worn out car, which she will not replace because of her concerns about the job market and economy, etc.

Why the general population in America is drawn to boring, bland, underperforming Japanese cars, I cannot understand. I guess they all enjoy driving their boring Hondas and Toyotas, but I just shudder to think that someday, those kinds of cars may be my only choices. :roll:

I think gm's operations as a whole would be better than they are now ( obviously) if they were never involved with saturn, hummer to begin with.

Im going to miss pontiac,if they decide to get rid of it. My dad had a '67 gto & i have had 2 t/a's '82 & '84.

The same thing would have happend in time anyway. What was wrong with Saturn and Hummer is the same thing that was wrong with GM.

You would think company like GM would have one purchasing department, one Marketing, one customer service etc. Well they don't. It is common for GM to buy the same bearing by 17 different purchasing departments and pay 17 different prices.

GM was brought to gether form many companies but never got the run as one corperation thing down. During the Sloan era they survivd by the large scale and market share. That no longer works and GM failed to make the needed changed in the last 50 years to adapt to it. In other words they kind of work like the goverment and have a lot of waste.

THey also failed to stand up to the unions in the past and gave away more than they can afford today. It is kind of like your freedom once you give it away it is near impossible to get it back.

The Changes in the coming weeks will help save the strong parts of GM. THe wild card is the economy as there will be a buying spree once things work out but the economy will not just spring back like some think. Some of the policies the goverment is doing today is not instilling much with the Fortune 500 and Wall Street. It is time to work with them vs just jumping all over them. There are some very good companies and smart wall street people but with the way they are being treated they not going to help much. This is why they can't fill cabinet and under cabinet seats with qualified people.

Pontiac nearly died in 1980's GM gave them a second chance when the Grand Am sales were high. But the never really funded them well since the 70's. THe Fiero was funded seceretly by Pontiac and was killed by GM several times. The failings of the Fiero was mostly because the lack of Corperate support and the hate from Chevy. GM has been their own worst enemy.

As for HHR SS siting around there is just a lot of cars just sitting as nothing is selling.

The other SS factor is many people do not know what it is. GM has done little to no marketing on it and many other models so people really know little of these cars. Even the dealer books handed out has little info.

I get told that people love what I did to my HHR. When I tell them I bought it that way they are shocked and even more shocked when they find out it has a 290 HP Turbo.

GM needs to take the money they have left and market the hell out of Chevy and develope the best cars they can. THe new Malibu is as good as anything out there. But GM needs to make it better than anything out there. IF they want people to see they are different they need to give them a reason to buy their cars.

IF they fail to develope & market their cars for the future they will fall into the same trap as Packard, Studebaker, AMC and other large companieds fell into Before they closed.

Ya !!! Wall St. has real smart people. Push paper around until the economy collapses.:roll::roll::roll:

Here is the rerported plan from what I have heard.

Caddy will be at least a 3 car divison with SUV of several sizes. RWD will remain as will the AWD option.

Chevy will be the value leader and offer a wide range of cars not just avaiable here but world wide.

Buick will get a lot of new product and it will be in the Lexus/Audi class. The new cars will not be old cars for th boring. The new Lacrosse will offer over 260 HP with AWD in a very classy car. I saw one and it is not like old car in any way. THey will also get sever other models one is planned on the Opel Insignia a very very good car already offered with a 320 twin turbo V6. If Buick fails millions of buyers in China will pick up the slack. That is why they live.

Cars like the G8 can be converted into ta Caprice as it is already sold as in the middle east. Not a big task to change and it can be sold here at a low Volume and make a profit.

The Solstice and Sky ? It could live on in the new Alpha platform but with the sales volume they have and they up and down cycle of the 2 seat market it may not live fast 2012=2014.

The Alpha progeam needs to be watched as the RWD platform could created many cool cars. Time will tell.

Oh GMC will make a profit as follow Chevys lead.


I'm sorry to say, this sounds like the same ol', same ol'...to me. Another blunder by the "ingenious" marketing people and "continuous management"...perhaps ??? Guess it remains to be seen. I mean, who am I. Just a little guy that watched them stumble through blunders for many years (including Wagners) and while REAL business people tried to tell them those pending decisions are the wrong direction.:roll:

IF they want people to see they are different they need to give them a reason to buy their cars.

IF they fail to develope & market their cars for the future they will fall into the same trap as Packard, Studebaker, AMC and other large companieds fell into Before they closed.

:thumb::steering:

I'm sorry to say, this sounds like the same ol', same ol'...to me. Another blunder by the "ingenious" marketing people and "continuous management"...perhaps ??? Guess it remains to be seen. I mean, who am I. Just a little guy that watched them stumble through blunders for many years (including Wagners) and while REAL business people tried to tell them those pending decisions are the wrong direction.:roll:

It is different this time as RIck Wagoner had been transforming the GM more in the last 8 years than anyone person has in the last 75 years.

There just was so much tha needed fixed and so littl money to do it. Also there was great resistance to his changes. At GM the lead guy does not always get what he wants as he still has to answer to a board.

Rick did make a few mistakes but he really was close to pulling this off if the economy and gas prices had not killed truck sales last year. The truck profits were paying for many of the changes as in buy outs and new product.

GM has a lot of new product just waiting to come out. We only hear about the Volt as that is all the media cares about. The Volt is a first gen show case. It will not save GM in the first Gen but it could very well set the trend for the future drivetrains in green cars. The First Prius never made a profit and the present one did little till gas prices went up. The new car is finally getting to were it needs to be. THe Volt will do much the same. It's technology will not just be in it in the future but also other GM cars in the line up.

GM once our of major debt and with much less over lap in all area will do well. Just one problem they can not control it the Economy. As it is all the companies will have problems as Toyota and Honda are also burning through cash reserves.

The biggest problem with the Auto company problems is that few people really know what is going on, what is at stake and the real needs. The other problem is often the media also does not tell the correct story or get it right half the time. ..

I know some people in GM and I also work in the performance aftermarket and get feed back on much of what is going on. There are a lot of worried people as there are still a lot of cuts coming.

Your not just a little guy you're a customer you can make a differance many have by buying other brands.

Also the people who tried to tell them also were not always right. If it were so easy to run companies like this everyone would be doing it. But from what I see on the web comments few people would have crashed GM in a week with some of their ideas.

GM may have a lot of trouble selling the Volt, since they dont offer rental anymore. The price of a replacement battery is going to be sky high, and when the battery is nearly exhausted, the car will have little to no resale value. I'm wondering how many years the battery will last up here in the great white north?

A $10000.00 battery replacement wil hurt the Volt sales IMHO.

http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/hidden-costs.html

It is different this time as RIck Wagoner had been transforming the GM more in the last 8 years than anyone person has in the last 75 years.

There just was so much tha needed fixed and so littl money to do it. Also there was great resistance to his changes. At GM the lead guy does not always get what he wants as he still has to answer to a board.

So 2-3 years ago, he commits to 200-300 million $ to develop the ZR1 (bet, they wish they had THAT money now). In an economy that is spiraling downward ....yeah, right. How about, the GTO or the SSR. And I won't even mention everyones favorite....the Aztek). Don't get me wrong. These are nice vehicles but priced AND designed into an arena that was unaccepting. Bragging rights on the ZR1 is about all they get from that. There's still a couple hundred unsold in the US and they stopped building. The celebrity owners....NASCAR drivers, Jay Leno, Senator McCain's wife...Cindy, Terry Hatcher all got extremely good deals on them so GM would have bragging rights.

And don't get me started on the GM Board of Directors. They are certainly part of GM's problem with the decisions they have made. Worthless pieces of $hi$ that get a new vehicle for free and about $20K for every meeting (and I, on 3 occasions, had to make presentations to them....so I'm not exactly virgin to them). And, nobody is even looking to make them responsible for some stupidity.

Rick did make a few mistakes but he really was close to pulling this off if the economy and gas prices had not killed truck sales last year. The truck profits were paying for many of the changes as in buy outs and new product.

Mr. Wagner was warned, 3 years ago, of the impending gas price explosion and he verbally and publicly committed to continue the financial emphasis on gas eating SUV's and large trucks. Yeah I know, he had to build what was selling just to generate revenue (and Truck Group was the darling of GM that could do no wrong and received almost everything they requested). But, why no (or very little) financial commitment to a vehicle(s) that would provide what a lot of people are, or have been looking for and the future was dictating (bad advise and direction from marketing people who conduct the consumer clinics). A little slow on the uptake, if you ask me.

GM once our of major debt and with much less over lap in all area will do well. Just one problem they can not control it the Economy. As it is all the companies will have problems as Toyota and Honda are also burning through cash reserves.

You bet they are. But they are sitting on much more liquid finances, than any "American" company.

The biggest problem with the Auto company problems is that few people really know what is going on, what is at stake and the real needs. The other problem is often the media also does not tell the correct story or get it right half the time. ..

I know some people in GM and I also work in the performance aftermarket and get feed back on much of what is going on. There are a lot of worried people as there are still a lot of cuts coming.

One piece of advise.....don't really expect these people to tell you the absolute truth. Their jobs are on the line. It is customary to provide the "company line" when you are in a management position. Been there and done that. Don't need to now...I'm retired.

Your not just a little guy you're a customer you can make a difference many have by buying other brands.

I buy GM vehicles because I get a very attractive discount and I'm STILL loyal to GM in spite of their continuing malfeasance (I can't say how much longer that will last). But I've also made contacts with the competition, when I worked for GM. Because of this I COULD purchase a competitive vehicle at an attractive price....probably much less than what one would normally expect (at least in 2 foreign competitors that I queried).

Also the people who tried to tell them also were not always right. If it were so easy to run companies like this everyone would be doing it. But from what I see on the web comments few people would have crashed GM in a week with some of their ideas.

Finally, I will say that Wagner was the most progressive CEO and President that GM had while I was employed by them. But, that's not giving much credit. Everyone, starting from the last years of Pete Estes (who had some good early years) to the present were/was/are/is horrible.


I'm off my soapbox and done venting. Besides this is off topic. But, I could tell you stories of financial stupidity that would make your tongue curl.

SORRY, to the OP and the Mod's.

GM may have a lot of trouble selling the Volt, since they dont offer rental anymore. The price of a replacement battery is going to be sky high, and when the battery is nearly exhausted, the car will have little to no resale value. I'm wondering how many years the battery will last up here in the great white north?

A $10000.00 battery replacement wil hurt the Volt sales IMHO.

http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/hidden-costs.html

But you do know, that you get, I believe I heard or read, a $500 recycle fee for the old batteries....Right.:D

Finally, I will say that Wagner was the most progressive CEO and President that GM had while I was employed by them. But, that's not giving much credit. Everyone, starting from the last years of Pete Estes (who had some good early years) to the present were/was/are/is horrible.


I'm off my soapbox and done venting. Besides this is off topic. But, I could tell you stories of financial stupidity that would make your tongue curl.

SORRY, to the OP and the Mod's.

Not off topic as this is why the thread is here.

The Aztec was well on the way when Rick showed up and he brought in Lutz to do what he knew he was not good at.

The ZR1 development price would have changed little even not spent.

Word has been gas would so up for years. Also last fall they said we would never see $2 gas again either! Hind sight is 20/20. If you has to pick another vehicle to make a great profit to rebuild GM what would it have been? The Malibu is a great car and selling well but produces no where the same profit. The trucks were the only option for quick cash. Timing and luck were just bad.

If you want to point out errors the Fiat deal was a mess.

Either way GM is pointed in the right direction now but still needs some work. THe pres pulling Rick out was just a token deal. If he wanted to do any good the board needed to be replaced. But I still don't agree with the goverment telling companies what to do when they have no back ground in building cars.

Either way Two good books on GM are Why GM MAtters just new in book stores and On a Clear Day You Can See GM By John Delorean. They both show why things are as they are today.

The people I know are in marketing and engineering. They are not ones to always tell the company line.

I also had a family member who was well placed in GM from the 20's through the 60's. He was old school GM and of the mind set that brought on this mess. So I have seen it from both sides.

I will never say Rick was perfect but the system limited what he could do.

Whar killed Pontiac is the same things that is killing GM. To little change too late.

Yeah, I realized I forgot the Cobalt/Cruze and also the "Volt" but I was too tired/lazy to go back and edit the post.

With regard to your comment on being able to find 5 unsold 2008 HHR SS within a 200 mile radius, I know what you're saying. In metro Atlanta, there is only 1 unsold new 2008 HHR SS, but there are quite a few unsold 2009 HHR SS's within a 100 mile radius. I currently have a 2004 Pontiac GTO which I bought new in January 2005, and which I enjoy very much. However, when the GTOs came out in 2004, they couldn't give them away, and I will never understand why. The only thing I can attribute it to is that the automotive media trashed it for looking too "bland" and the lemmings in the general public allowed themselves to miss out on a great car because some idiots in the press, with their mindless, profound loyalty to all cars German and Japanese, decided it was bland looking. It looks good to me, and lots of people give it a second look as I am driving down the street. I get lots of thumbs ups from people walking by and driving by. Obviously, it's not too bland. Similarly, for whatever reason, people don't buy the HHR SS and they sit on dealer lots. With GM's upcoming "recovery" efforts, I am really afraid that they will stop making cars like the HHR SS before I am ready to buy another car for myself.

I would love to have a Chevy HHR SS, but I simply don't "need," at this point to trade the GTO in, and I cannot justify having two personal vehicles for myself. I cannot even convince my wife to get rid of her 2000 Altima GLE with nearly 120,000 miles on it; so I cannot in good conscience have two newer cars for myself while she drives around a nine year old worn out car, which she will not replace because of her concerns about the job market and economy, etc.

Why the general population in America is drawn to boring, bland, underperforming Japanese cars, I cannot understand. I guess they all enjoy driving their boring Hondas and Toyotas, but I just shudder to think that someday, those kinds of cars may be my only choices. :roll:
I looked at the new GTO when it came out...amazing how the car magazines (and I agreed with them) made fun of Pontiac and their plastic clad cars which morphed into the single ugliest and biggest piece of garbage this side of the LeCar; the Aztek. A vehicle that made the Edsel look good. Like I said, I liked the GTO, but I could not find one with a manual, an dyou could not get one with a sunroof. I will not own a vehicle that doesnt have a sunroof or convertible top. Secondly, in regards to Buick being a geezers car - I have owned a bunch of cars (approx 35) and the single best car I ever owned - a 1966 Electra, followed by a 1967 Skylark. Buick makes fantastic cars - but everyone under a certain age has forgotten or never knew there was a time that Buicks were the cars to own. A Buick symbolized you had made it. But Roger Smith saw that Buicks and Chevys and Pontiacs became the same. God damn him for doing it. Roger Smith and Bob Eaton killed the American Car Industry. Bill Ford tried. It is a sad time - and we may or may not see some manufacturers carry on. But hey, Toyota makes a great, if ugly, product. American cars always had styling that was missing from the European and Asian products, then the 70's and 80's happened. American Cars pulled out for a bit, but it may have been too many years of poor management that killed them.

Loved my Pontiac Grand Prix GTP...

:roll:

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/321/2401/25801200317_large.jpg

Haven't read all the posts on this but was thinking - just because they are dropping the Pontiac line sure doesn't mean it's gone. They can always bring it back in the future just as they have done with models ie: Camaro, Thunderbird (Ford), etc. Admitedly, this is a badge, but it could be done.

Haven't read all the posts on this but was thinking - just because they are dropping the Pontiac line sure doesn't mean it's gone. They can always bring it back in the future just as they have done with models ie: Camaro, Thunderbird (Ford), etc. Admitedly, this is a badge, but it could be done.


but then again the thunderbird flew the coupe again..........

Loved my Pontiac Grand Prix GTP...

:roll:

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/321/2401/25801200317_large.jpg

that's a sweet ride. i don't recall ever seeing 1.......also to add some good news to this thread...i don't think it's been metioned yet , and it is the only thing i can think of....... i would think that values of most pontiacs will go up :thumb:

that's a sweet ride. i don't recall ever seeing 1.......also to add some good news to this thread...i don't think it's been metioned yet , and it is the only thing i can think of....... i would think that values of most pontiacs will go up :thumb:


I hope so, but it didn't work out that way for Plymouth or Oldsmobile.

I hope so, but it didn't work out that way for Plymouth or Oldsmobile.

have you priced a cuda lately?:eek:

I looked at the new GTO when it came out...amazing how the car magazines (and I agreed with them) made fun of Pontiac and their plastic clad cars which morphed into the single ugliest and biggest piece of garbage this side of the LeCar; the Aztek. A vehicle that made the Edsel look good. Like I said, I liked the GTO, but I could not find one with a manual, an dyou could not get one with a sunroof. I will not own a vehicle that doesnt have a sunroof or convertible top. Secondly, in regards to Buick being a geezers car - I have owned a bunch of cars (approx 35) and the single best car I ever owned - a 1966 Electra, followed by a 1967 Skylark. Buick makes fantastic cars - but everyone under a certain age has forgotten or never knew there was a time that Buicks were the cars to own. A Buick symbolized you had made it. But Roger Smith saw that Buicks and Chevys and Pontiacs became the same. God damn him for doing it. Roger Smith and Bob Eaton killed the American Car Industry. Bill Ford tried. It is a sad time - and we may or may not see some manufacturers carry on. But hey, Toyota makes a great, if ugly, product. American cars always had styling that was missing from the European and Asian products, then the 70's and 80's happened. American Cars pulled out for a bit, but it may have been too many years of poor management that killed them.


Please pardon my angry vent session.

I would modify one of your statements: Buick made great cars. I liked the Gran Sports from the late 60s and early 70s, the Rivieras from that time frame, the old Wildcats, and even the mid eighties GNs with the 3.8 turbos, but those days are long gone. I had a 1997 Buick Skylark, and it was a scary ride to have to go around some corners at normal traffic speed. That was probably the worst handling car that I ever owned (other than my first car, a 1961 Ford Galaxy.)

Each of us has an opinion as to what constitutes a good looking car, but I can't think of a single Toyota or Honda in which the styling appeals to me. Especially Toyotas. Add to that their cheap manufacturing practices (timing belts instead of timing chains, etc.) and that they now cost more than American brands... But the media has told us that the imports have better quality, so they must be right, must they not? I'm sorry to say I have never seen what constitutes better quality to the media. I guess they don't mind having to replace a timing belt every 60,000 miles, nor mind how expensive that little bit of "planned obsolescence" is.

have you priced a cuda lately?:eek:

I was generally thinking about more modern Plymouths. I suspect Cudas, Roadrunners, etc. are the exception rather than the rule.

Here's the AP story over at Yahoo!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090427/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_plan

Oh good, we're back on topic! R.I.P. Pontiac!

Automotive News: June 8, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

Pontiac is toast at the end of the 2010 model year. But the Pontiac G8 sedan might survive with another GM badge, says Tom Stephens, General Motors' vice chairman of global product development.

"I know there's still discussions on it," says Stephens. "But Chevrolet already has several sedans. How many sedans do you need to cover the waterfront?"

The G8, engineered and assembled by GM subsidiary Holden in Australia, has been a bright spot for Pontiac. With little advertising support, the sporty, rear-drive sedan, which starts at $29,000 including freight, has sold well. Some versions have the same V-8 engine as the Chevrolet Corvette.

Some enthusiasts are lobbying GM to turn the G8 into a Chevrolet Impala SS. The current front-drive Impala SS is being phased out at the end of the 2009 model year.

The G8 also could morph into a performance sedan for Buick. Buick has not had a rear-drive performance car since the mid-1980s.

The G8 also could morph into a performance sedan for Buick. Buick has not had a rear-drive performance car since the mid-1980s.

How about a new Buick GS, Wildcat or Riviera? :D

I'm going to guess it will end up under Chevy's Roof, considering before all this economy crap 2-3yr ago Chevy was planning on making the Impala RWD. Then again it could end up under Buick,however Buick is already getting the 5 Door and 4 Door Astra.

Who knows might see it as a GMC, who knows.