According to New York Times

"G.M. also said that by 2010 it would phase out its Pontiac brand, eliminate 42 percent of its dealers, close 13 plants and cut 21,000 hourly jobs as part of its revised restructuring plan."

Read entire story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/business/28auto.html?_r=1&hp

JMHO and only my opinion


where are the white collar job cuts.......dont see any salary guys being cut or stated they are being cut, but then again I guess Gm thinks since they are salary they can make them work many hours without paying them more. But they still dont know how to be the worker in the plant.

I thought giving the money to automakers was supposed to help them, but if they are cutting jobs more and more, then i say "welp your laying off big time many many people loosing jobs no money for you" ...... what does it gain to give them money to bail out if they are cutting jobs..... give the bail out money to those that lost there jobs do to mis handling or miss management. and let the car company go belly up.

Just tired of big corporations asking for money, and the little guy, still gets swept out the door...

Can all those fat cats, with NO money, just a pink slip, and lets see how they would survive....no retirement, no health benefits, nothing

just my thoughts...........i had to vent

I agree with your point on white collar workers. What I don't understand is why cut Pontiac? I thought Pontiac was strong. I would think Buick and GMC would go before Pontiac. Hell GMC trucks is pretty much the same as a Chevy. Why not cut the redundancy before killing a major market. It's truly sad to see the company that produced great cars like the GTO and Trans Am is getting the axe.

Scratch.

Sorry. I said a lot of stuff, but at the risk of starting a major argument. I'm withdrawing my comments. I'll let people believe what they like and try not to get worked up about it. 'Nuff said...

Scratch.

Sorry. I said a lot of stuff, but at the risk of starting a major argument. I'm withdrawing my comments. I'll let people believe what they like and try not to get worked up about it. 'Nuff said...


ok i confused :confused::confused: but thats easy to do

I agree with your point on white collar workers. What I don't understand is why cut Pontiac? I thought Pontiac was strong. I would think Buick and GMC would go before Pontiac. Hell GMC trucks is pretty much the same as a Chevy. Why not cut the redundancy before killing a major market. It's truly sad to see the company that produced great cars like the GTO and Trans Am is getting the axe.

I believe Buick is making more money than any other GM division. I agree with the GMC but I think they should cut Chevy Trucks and just make them GMC.

GM has cut a lot of white collar jobs all along. They just don't make the headlines in the press as do the factory jobs. White collar workers do not have union reps making public statments when they get cut so they go out quitly and unsee to much of the public.

Pontiac got cut because it was not doing well a perfromance division with only two real performance cars? Buick is making large profits in China and is the top seller there so it is little risk to rebuild them here with the same cars.

GMC is low volume but big profits. Plain and simple they make more money per unit sold than just about anything at GM.

The big problem with this whole deal is too few people know all of what caused this and have a grasp of what is going on. The press really explains nothing for the most and GM and UAW have their own views. The employees have their own view too.

So in and around this we have the truth if you toss out half the claims in each area.

I believe Buick is making more money than any other GM division. I agree with the GMC but I think they should cut Chevy Trucks and just make them GMC.


That sounds smart but the Chevy name has a lot of equity and they have always out sold GMC. This makes it hard to transfer everything to GMC.

Besides GMC cost little to make out of a Chevy truck and GM makes a premium to make more profit.

GM has cut a lot of white collar jobs all along. They just don't make the headlines in the press as do the factory jobs. White collar workers do not have union reps making public statments when they get cut so they go out quitly and unsee to much of the public.

Pontiac got cut because it was not doing well a perfromance division with only two real performance cars? Buick is making large profits in China and is the top seller there so it is little risk to rebuild them here with the same cars.

GMC is low volume but big profits. Plain and simple they make more money per unit sold than just about anything at GM.

The big problem with this whole deal is too few people know all of what caused this and have a grasp of what is going on. The press really explains nothing for the most and GM and UAW have their own views. The employees have their own view too.

So in and around this we have the truth if you toss out half the claims in each area.

Don't forget the UAW member $40 an hour janitors.

Don't forget the UAW member $40 an hour janitors

hmm is that with benefits......... still alot cheaper than 2 million or 3 million exec. that made some of those bad decisions...... i said it once, IT COMES FROM BOTH SIDES> cant just blame that janitor.... 40.00 to clean a 2,000 hr ceo......
both sides have to give....... and take blame..

What I just read over on CNN was even though Pontiac sell nearly twice as many cars a Buick does here that Buick generates more profit per vehicle plus Buick is the number one Lux Car in China. People love it there so there is no way GM will give up that market.
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I agree with your point on white collar workers. What I don't understand is why cut Pontiac? I thought Pontiac was strong. I would think Buick and GMC would go before Pontiac. Hell GMC trucks is pretty much the same as a Chevy. Why not cut the redundancy before killing a major market. It's truly sad to see the company that produced great cars like the GTO and Trans Am is getting the axe.

The issue is on all sides. UAW and GM both are to blame.

The 6 million the CEO makes is a drop in the bucket compared to the greater waste GM has over all.

Too many people get fixated on the small spot on the wall when the wall is falling on them.

Like the AIG bonus thing was such a distraction form the real issues.

Yes Buick make big money in China as Pontiac made great losses on fleet sales of G6 sedans.

I believe Buick is making more money than any other GM division. I agree with the GMC but I think they should cut Chevy Trucks and just make them GMC.


:thumb::thumb:

The 6 million the CEO makes is a drop in the bucket compared to the greater waste GM has over all.

The seas have been filled, one drop at a time.

The seas have been filled, one drop at a time.

This problem is more than just the UAW and CEO'S. This is about the lack of change inside GM for years. It is about GM having 17 part numbers for the same roller bearing and paying 17 different prices for it from Federal Mogal from 17 purchasing departments. Could one not do the same for all divisions?

This is about GM being formed form many different companies over the years and never being made to work as one corperation. GM's waste was managable when they owned 50% of the market but at 18% it can't keep on.

You can dwell on the drips in the ocean even though they are managable but the gash in the bow will do you in.

I believe Buick is making more money than any other GM division. I agree with the GMC but I think they should cut Chevy Trucks and just make them GMC.

you would have SOOOOOOO many "rednecks" getting pissed cuz gm just got rid of chevy trucks. even gmc trucks at that .

on my point thats why i think would happen if they ever cut a truck model

just my thoughts

Is there any chance Chevy could use a Pontiac model in their line - like the fuel efficient Vibe? It would be a shame for that model to die out. (My son has one and it is a great little car.) I know it is the Toyota Matrix sister car, but I still like to buy American cars.

I will be waiting to see if the Malibu now gets a convertible top version now that the G6 convertible is gone.

So if GM is going to cut Pontiac is Saturn still doomed? The only car that does not really cross-platform is the Solstice and the Sky. If they kill those lines what is going to happen to those fun little roadsters. It seems like those two cars sold fairly well compared to other makers that make a similar car like the Mazda Miata or Honda S2000.

I have a surefire method to save the big 3. Set the clock back to 1970, GM buys Toyota & Subaru, Ford buys Honda & Mazda, Chrsler buys Nissan & Mitsubishi. Our biggest problem is still a huge trade imbalance with the countries that flood us with cars. We are not treated fairly in the other direction. This goes for Canada's "domestic" cars as well.

I have a surefire method to save the big 3. Set the clock back to 1970, GM buys Toyota & Subaru, Ford buys Honda & Mazda, Chrsler buys Nissan & Mitsubishi. Our biggest problem is still a huge trade imbalance with the countries that flood us with cars. We are not treated fairly in the other direction. This goes for Canada's "domestic" cars as well.

I thought of that too but I cannot seem to get my flux capacitor to put out the necessary 1.21 "JiggaWatts" necessary for Time Travel. Everytime I get my Delorean up to 88 MPH all that happens is time slows down a bit.

GM has cut a lot of white collar jobs all along. They just don't make the headlines in the press as do the factory jobs. White collar workers do not have union reps making public statments when they get cut so they go out quitly and unsee to much of the public.


The BIGGEST problem right now with white-collar job cuts, besides the fact that nobody hears about them because none of them complain loud enough to make a noise against the sea of UAW voices, is that the WRONG white-collar jobs are being cut.

Take for example, GMPT in Tonawanda, where my wife (until last Wednesday when she got her walking papers) was employed. Some friends managed to get her the list of people who have been cut. Other than cherry-picking a few low-performers, they cut EVERYONE under the age of 30, regardless of seniority.

99% of those cut were engineers. None of the so-called "support" staff got cut (i.e. executives who make the most money). Of the remaining engineers, they cut some jobs and spread the wealth to all of them.

It's kind of emblematic, in my eyes, when the senior staff at a plant decides to cut ENGINEERS who are paid less than industry average salaries, yet decides to keep a PUBLICITY OFFICER who makes 35% more than those cut, who is thoroughly useless (can't spell, puts out newsletters about things nobody cares about, and is way out of touch with reality. Responsible for a $100/plate charity event last year before the annual car show where participants paid their money to be fed bottles of water and small desserts while looking at cars. Oh yeah, and not only were the workers "encouraged" to volunteer without being able to partake, they didn't even offer anything to the CAR OWNERS!!!).

Okay, rage dump ended. Discuss.

I might also add, it's mighty suspect that suddenly the government is open to forgiving GM's debts in exchange for 50% of its common stock, and that combined with contributions to the UAW retiree medical fund (also in stock) the government and the UAW will own 89% of GM's common stock.

50% government ownership is standard operating procedure in CHINA, people. If they can do this to GM, where does it stop?

you would have SOOOOOOO many "rednecks" getting pissed cuz gm just got rid of chevy trucks. even gmc trucks at that .

on my point thats why i think would happen if they ever cut a truck model

just my thoughts

i had one my 05 sierra gmc truck rode better than my son in laws 05 chevrolet silverado, that were equip alike. same as my gmc envoy rode better than the chevy trailblazer. drove them both down the same rode, lane and speed.

Is there any chance Chevy could use a Pontiac model in their line - like the fuel efficient Vibe? It would be a shame for that model to die out. (My son has one and it is a great little car.) I know it is the Toyota Matrix sister car, but I still like to buy American cars.


the vibe replaces the hhr...........hope not..... but with gm one never knows

This problem is more than just the UAW and CEO'S. This is about the lack of change inside GM for years. It is about GM having 17 part numbers for the same roller bearing and paying 17 different prices for it from Federal Mogal from 17 purchasing departments. Could one not do the same for all divisions?

This is about GM being formed form many different companies over the years and never being made to work as one corperation. GM's waste was managable when they owned 50% of the market but at 18% it can't keep on.

You can dwell on the drips in the ocean even though they are managable but the gash in the bow will do you in.

maybe its the so called investmenst buying those companies that gm bought for research etc. that didnt pan out. that were worthless.

Is there any chance Chevy could use a Pontiac model in their line - like the fuel efficient Vibe? It would be a shame for that model to die out. (My son has one and it is a great little car.) I know it is the Toyota Matrix sister car, but I still like to buy American cars.

I think if you want one, just buy the Toyota. I see no reason to add yet another small crossover to the Chevrolet lineup.

Is there any chance Chevy could use a Pontiac model in their line - like the fuel efficient Vibe? It would be a shame for that model to die out. (My son has one and it is a great little car.) I know it is the Toyota Matrix sister car, but I still like to buy American cars.

No Vibe at Chevy as it will compete with the new Orlando Chevy has coming and the HHR that is already there. GM and Toyota will come up with a new car for their agreement and it is to be determind.

So if GM is going to cut Pontiac is Saturn still doomed? The only car that does not really cross-platform is the Solstice and the Sky. If they kill those lines what is going to happen to those fun little roadsters. It seems like those two cars sold fairly well compared to other makers that make a similar car like the Mazda Miata or Honda S2000.

The Kappa Roadster is done at the end of 2010 they have no plans to move it anywhere.

There was talk of it at Chevy a year or two ago but I would not hold my breath.

The only car to move may be a G8 Police package that will be imported as a Chevy. THey already sell it in the middle east as a Chevy.

The RWD cars would be sold to police departments in fleet sales. THey would import 40,000 a year. Cutting the G8 would result in Holden taking a Billion dollar a year loss.

If thing work right GM could maybe let some come in as a Caprice?

maybe its the so called investmenst buying those companies that gm bought for research etc. that didnt pan out. that were worthless.

Thing much more basic and critical caused this. THe money spent on those companies were pennies compared to internal issues. Read up on what really has gone on inside GM in Why GM Matters and you will under stand.

GM was their own worst enemey. The infighting cost them more money and market share than anything Toyota did.

The bottom line is GM is going to lose some very good people. It is not going to be fare for most but it is part of life. Things like this happen and you need to pick up and move on. Life time employment is not a sure thing anymore and is down right rare.

I went through this a the Hoover sweeper company. I was bitter at first now as I drive by the plant they later closed I thank God everytime.

They ended up doing me a favore. I ended up with a very good company and they treat me so much better than most places will.

I also know things can change quick and I may have to start over someday. It will not be fun and it may be panful but you just have to move on and often you will find you will end up in a better opritunity if you keep you mind and options open.

The cold fact of today is companies are in a very competitive global market anymore. There is always someone out their looking to do something cheaper and more profitable. Companies have cut many things. The harsh fact is they are there to make money not employe people. The extras they used to do for the employees have been cut at many places. It is a shame but that is the way it is.

THe best thing to do is take what you have learned and move on as there are better things to be found. Often the limits we have are self inflicted. I did that to myself and have learned better.

Look at most people today that make it. They learn you make your own luck and oppritunities.

Secsessful people are to be learned from. Often someone who came from nothing to make something of themselves has a lot to teach us if we are only willing to learn.

Too often we look at sport figures and entertainers that just fell into it when the real seccessful people are sometimes right around us.

This is about the lack of change inside GM for years. It is about GM having 17 part numbers for the same roller bearing and paying 17 different prices for it from Federal Mogal from 17 purchasing departments. Could one not do the same for all divisions?


GM has NOT had more than ONE PURCHASING DEPARTMENT in about 10 years. It became TOTALLY CENTRALIZED and all use a commonized, and dedicated electronic/computerized purchasing system.:confused:

ALL product related parts are entered into this system WITH THE NEGOTIATED PRICE attached to the part number. Once you query the system and issue a release, the system automatically enters the price per each. This MUST be done, for the invoice/supplier TO GET PAID.

This scenario is either from 10 years ago or something is seriously wrong with the example..

GM has NOT had more than ONE PURCHASING DEPARTMENT in about 10 years. It became TOTALLY CENTRALIZED and all use a commonized, and dedicated electronic/computerized purchasing system.:confused:

ALL product related parts are entered into this system WITH THE NEGOTIATED PRICE attached to the part number. Once you query the system and issue a release, the system automatically enters the price per each. This MUST be done, for the invoice/supplier TO GET PAID.

This scenario is either from 10 years ago or something is seriously wrong with the example..

You will have to ask the author of the book.

I would say it was from a while back as it was a Federal Mogul rep that stated this and they have had their own issues for the last 10 years to.

But the point is how GM has not worked as one corpertation for years. Just look at the over lap in many areas and inter fighting. GM has cost themselves more money and problems than Toyota, Honda and Ford combined.

Look at how often Pontiac has had some good ideas and cars only to get them stopped by GM. THey has OHC in the early 60 on a V8 and were stopped at the L6 OHC. THey wanted radials and disc brakes as far back as 1965 and were stopped. THey wanted Fuel injection and were stopped. I could go on. GM could have been the leader and chose to follow.

I agree with your analysis....i.e, the infighting. Seen it.

But, if the author had to use a scenario from 10 years ago to illustrate his position/statement, it seriously "dents" his credibility. That is just NOT done or acceptable by anyone's standards.....unless of course he prefaced and noted the time period.

Do remember he is a financial reporter and they (financial people) have TRIED to run GM for 40 years.:D

As far as Pontiac, I think it should die. It's been years since Pontiac has had anything that wasn't a rebadge of something else. The "excitement" has ended.

For Chevy verses GMC trucks.... Yes there are small differances. But that could be achieved with the same brand. Just like with the HHR, LS, 1LT, & 2LT. Small differances, but still the same basically. So they should drop one or the other. I doubt any diehard Chevy truck fan would buy a Toyota just cause he has to buy a GMC verses a Chevy.

Well, it looks like the economy is taking it's toll in my town (as far as GM is concerned) I was up at the dealer today and I noticed trucks are loading up all of the cars that they have... Looks like they must be going under. No one in the service dept. seemed too concerned, they were going about with their business. Either way, I will be taking the HHR in tomorrow for my free oil change before I lose out on it. (It is due anyways, but I was just going to do it myself)

It's a shame...they did a good job with the service, and we've bought most of our cars from them.... But it looked like it was coming for some time. They only sell Chevrolet now since another dealer in town bought their Buick sales out...

It's a shame...but it's going to be happening a lot soon...