Performance as in how they work not so much high performance has to be included.

The key to good brakes and wear is heat transfer. THe more heat you can get out of the pads the better they perform and last. There are several ways to do this with the types of material used.

Organic is cheap and will wear fast and transfers little heat. Pad will fade and glaze under more than normal use.

Semi Metalic is the next step up The metal fillers help absorb the heat but they also wear the rotors. It is a trade off.

Ceramic is the next up. It is like the tiles on the Shuttle where it will transfer the heat to the metal backing plate and it has no use for the abrasive metal fillers. It is easier on rotors. But the key is to a good quality pad. Come cheap ceramic pads can be pretty bad. This is a case you get what you pay for. A quality ceramic will last longer and wear rotors less in the long run. You may pay a little more but you get much better and longer performance.

Kevlar is where for street use it is over kill. They are mostly for track use and work at higher temps. Brakes need some heat to work and as higher performance pad go for more bite they need more heat. On start up these can be weak in stopping till you warm them up. If you do track time these are great pads but there is no need for them on the street. Also quality is key. Only one company buys Kevlar from Dupont the supplier that is virgin and pure. Who knows where the others are coming from.

One of the best all around pads today for street use are the EBC red pads. Hawk yellows are also one of the best. Now that is to day there are some lesser pads that are still good the Hawk and EBC are just at the top of the market right now.

I have used both the Hawk and EBC with better results than any other pad out. My Sonoma was horrid on pads and I increased my miles and lack of brake issues when I moved to these pads. I spent more but saved in the long run on less changes and rotor issues.

Note this is from a daily driving perspective not a racing or high performance perspective.

Also note rotors are a disposable item they are ment to wear and get used up. I also anymore just change rotors vs cut them. With my cars now going 50,000 or more on rotors I just change them out. The best rotor on the market are standard Bendix or other quality OE type rotor. They are cheaper to buy and unless you want the styling of holes, dimples or slots you are just spending money for nothing. Holes and dimples just make companies money. Slots do have a cleaning effect but on the street really are not needed. Racing rotors have them to clear rubber and other debrie off of them that is on track. Often rubber and brake dust can build on a rotor and the slot will swipe it away in a hard corner.

Also note EBC and some other pads have a break in material. This coating will last a couple days and will seat the pads and if the rotors were in good condition will clean them up. A few other companies are starting to offer as similar material. This does help in seating and or clean up of the rotors. IF the rotors are deeply scored or have major heat spots they still need replaced or cut.

 

With the miles you put on, all the more reason to be concerned about performance, and like Hyper said, not in terms of high performance, but in durability and safety. Cheap pads and rotors are fine for cars that are not driven a lot or that don't get pounded on. But add up the costs you spend replacing pads every 20k miles, the cost of turning the rotors, and the time involved whether you do it yourself or pay someone else. Then compare that to the cost of good quality (not necessarily high performance) brake parts. If you're not spending more money on the cheaper parts, its a wash a best. Not to mention the time involved (which in my life is far more important than money), than you would if you bought quality parts.

Over the years I have found that NAPA's premium line of brake parts give me the most for my money. I use only semi-metallic pads on my Trailblazer because I tow with it. My last set of front pads I put on 43k miles ago (3 years ago). I also changed the rotors at that time. They have some wear, but are far from worn out. I can't speak to good experiences with the HHR as I have been plagued by the mysterious pulsating brake issue, but I did put new rotors on 35k miles ago. They are still in excellent shape. I never cut rotors, just trash them and replace. On my vehicles I generally get 50-60k out of my rotors, and 2 sets of pads during that time period, whether I'm using ceramic or semi-metallic.

 

"On my vehicles I generally get 50-60k out of my rotors, and 2 sets of pads during that time period, whether I'm using ceramic or semi-metallic."

Well, Doc you seem to be reporting the same wear mileage as I am, just different words. But good input.

In my area there are a couple of places that will cut the rotors for $15 each or less, so $30 vs. $70 wins in my book, and stays within specs. I don't see safety as an issue because I do inspect the front brakes and check the rear adjustment about every 3K, since I rotate my own tires (unless they need to be balanced).

I will not pay NAPA price for the identical item from the "medium box" stores, just for a name on the receipt. $85 the last time I checked at NAPA for the exact pads at Autozone/PepBoys/AdvanceAuto for $48, and I usually go for the "Silver" level for $25ish

BTW, I recently found out from personal experience that the "warped rotor" problem comes from not adjusting the rear brakes properly. I did not check the rear adjustment for 2 rotations, and bam! brake wobble. If the rears don't do anything, the fronts overheat and then warp. Maybe I should tell GM to change the "self adjusters" to the Japanese type that actually work!

 

I agree you get what you pay for and performance is important for durability.

I do have an advantage as I do get my parts for cost so It is very easy for me to trash rotors at every pad change. Even my GTP with the wife hard on the brakes gets over 50,000 miles out of the pads.

I am puzzled by the adjuster issue. I seldom have seen issues on GM cars with these. If you back up they stay in adjustment. Often it is hard to get a drum off without backing them off.

I do see a lot of low pedals on rear disc as so many do not use the e brake to adjust them up.

 

"I am puzzled by the adjuster issue. I seldom have seen issues on GM cars with these. If you back up they stay in adjustment. Often it is hard to get a drum off without backing them off".

I do the occasional back-up & hit the brakes. Still when I rotate tires they are not near adjusted properly, & once one was over adjusted.

fwiw.

 

This is what I do not understand. I have not done drum brakes on the HHR yet but on nearly any other GM car I have to back the pads off to pull the drums. Or often they are adjusteded to the point the shoes drag a little pulling the drum.

The only GM drum I would see freeze up were on medium duty trucks from the 70's and early 80's School bus chassis size.

I just wonder why the HHR is seeing this issue.

 

Mine don't seem to self adjust at all......

 

I'm curious as to why you bother with having them cut? I haven't had rotors cut in nearly 20 years. There's no reason to. IMO, its a waste of money, especially on cheap rotors. Add the original cost of the cheap rotor with the cost of cutting 2 or 3 times and now you're up to the cost of a good rotor. Either way, if you didn't cut them, that'd be a another $30 savings for you.

I can understand that to a point. But I don't buy NAPA because of the name. I buy their brake parts because over time I have found them to be of consistently good quality, and certainly not identical in quality to the big box stores or NAPA's low end offerings. I've bought the cheap rotors from AutoZone and the like. They're OK, but not particularly great. And the cheap pads are just that, cheap pads. I have a set of cheapies on the HHR right now for reasons I've explained in another thread about brake pulsation (hint, its not warpage! But I will say there seem to be several causes). I know you don't care about dust, but I do. And not only do cheap pads leave a lot of dust, they don't last more than 10-15k miles.

I do have one question, have you tried a good quality set of rotors and pads for one time period to compare? In my mind, because driving habits and conditions play a major role, the only way to really know what you're getting is to try it yourself.

 

Like I said, $15 to get another 60K miles out of a $40 rotor makes sense to me, I have never been able to get more than one cut out of the HHR rotors. I do not cut them every pad change, just when they need it, about 2-3 sets of pads.

I did indeed try "ProStop Ceramic" pads (PepBoys I think) with new rotors, they got maybe 35K (5K more) price difference was $30. 5K is not worth $30.

I park the car 10-20 times a day, so I do back up. I also back down a 10 degree 100 ft. driveway every day, stomping on the brake pedal 2-3 times enough to make a skid mark in the sealer. I did not mean that "we are seeing a problem with GM brakes", but in my particular case I can point to the problem definitively. The self-adjusters are the same as they have been for at least 40 years, when I was a teenager working in a TBA store the brake techs, even then, thanked the "Greater Powers" for self-adjusting brakes giving them a job. They have never worked. The reason you have to back them off is the ridge that develops from wear of the drum, the adjusters almost keep up with the drum wear, but not the lining wear. And, yes I did change my rear shoes at about 150K just because (they where still serviceable).

I can always get at least 1 click before hearing a drag noise after 3K, maybe it's just me, but in at least this one case the cause of a warped rotor was bad adjustment of rear drum brakes. And I suspect most other cases. The rotors are undersized, thus they get too hot easier, it does not take much over the design temp to warp them.

Well, this started out as a simple information gathering question about the wear of the rotor in relation to pad type. I sense we have gotten off topic now, but a really good conversation. Thank you all for input!

Don
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