Aerodynamic
10-19-2008, 09:16 AM
#11
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In fact they do
"Highway speeds vs dragway speeds have little in common."
In fact they do have a lot in common. Better aerodynamics helps performance AND mileage. Lighter weight helps performance AND mileage. Getting the most performance out of every drop of fuel is just as important to any racer as it is to someone trying for the best mileage.
It takes horsepower to overcome wind drag and weight. Period, that is with a drag car or an economy car. It takes gas to make horsepower, if you can reduce wind drag and make it lighter then it does not take as much gas to do the same work. Then get the most out of each drop of gas.
It goes much deeper than that. Most of the safety features and engine designs and body designs have strong roots in racing. That allows them to make a small 2.2 liter motor that easily moves our little cars. Curly
In fact they do have a lot in common. Better aerodynamics helps performance AND mileage. Lighter weight helps performance AND mileage. Getting the most performance out of every drop of fuel is just as important to any racer as it is to someone trying for the best mileage.
It takes horsepower to overcome wind drag and weight. Period, that is with a drag car or an economy car. It takes gas to make horsepower, if you can reduce wind drag and make it lighter then it does not take as much gas to do the same work. Then get the most out of each drop of gas.
It goes much deeper than that. Most of the safety features and engine designs and body designs have strong roots in racing. That allows them to make a small 2.2 liter motor that easily moves our little cars. Curly
11-08-2008, 11:23 AM
#13
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https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/show...t=17927&page=2
I am amazed by your tenacity also.
However Ill still stick to my tune+hypermiling theory. Everything else is probably a waste of time. I do wish you the best, but this is a serious uphill battle for limited gain that cannot be proven.
I am amazed by your tenacity also.
However Ill still stick to my tune+hypermiling theory. Everything else is probably a waste of time. I do wish you the best, but this is a serious uphill battle for limited gain that cannot be proven.
11-08-2008, 03:49 PM
#14
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Er....ummmmm... wind resistence happens at low speeds. Hold your arm and hand out the window, hand flat/ parallel with the road first, then straight up.
Nuthin' right? Now do it a different speeds. That resistence feels a lot different at 0 mph as opposed to 100 mph or for that matter 35 mph. All testing done on a closed course by a professional driver to prove the hand out the window theory.
(Not enough of you voted for me so now I'm not the President Elect!)
Nuthin' right? Now do it a different speeds. That resistence feels a lot different at 0 mph as opposed to 100 mph or for that matter 35 mph. All testing done on a closed course by a professional driver to prove the hand out the window theory.
(Not enough of you voted for me so now I'm not the President Elect!)
11-08-2008, 04:16 PM
#15
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It definatly can be done and it makes a difference
It definatly can be done and aerodynamics makes a HUGE difference.
This guy here Mike on another forum http://ecomodder.com/blog/2008/01/17...mpg-aerocivic/ gets something like 85 MPG @ 75 MPH out a basically stock drive train with aero mods to the car. Now I would never do anything like he has to my car but he has proven it can work and make huge improvements. He has also done many of the very things I was told here would not work.
It takes horsepower (gas) to overcome wind resistance and accelerate weight. Lose weight or improve wind resistance mileage improves. Thing is what looks aerodynamic is not always so.
This guy here Mike on another forum http://ecomodder.com/blog/2008/01/17...mpg-aerocivic/ gets something like 85 MPG @ 75 MPH out a basically stock drive train with aero mods to the car. Now I would never do anything like he has to my car but he has proven it can work and make huge improvements. He has also done many of the very things I was told here would not work.
It takes horsepower (gas) to overcome wind resistance and accelerate weight. Lose weight or improve wind resistance mileage improves. Thing is what looks aerodynamic is not always so.
11-08-2008, 11:40 PM
#18
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Join Date: 01-13-2008
Location: Washington State, where it rains
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..reduce the size of the mirrors(or remove them)....close off the front grill as much as possible without affecting cooling(can be reducted from underneath)
apply front and side flexible skirts (along with lowering)figure out best milage
at cruise and gear accordingly....tune...open up exhaust system...leave intake alone(you want small intake runners to keep velocity high to ensure the best possible atomization possible)..remove all intake obstructions,including any odd shaped curves and such....really other then a tune theres not much you can do to these motors... could try cam timing(experiment)..regrind the cam...shave door handles...plexiglass fog lites to smooth opening....slightly flare out front edge of front fenders to help evacuate air from front areas(air from radiator has to go somewhere,better to exit then go under car)..anything else you need a wind tunnel to find.wanna go race?Do a ProMod rear spoiler...gets rid of the back vacuum while allowing more rear downforce(not that you would see it below 80mph)
All common sense backyard fixes..you gotta remember your driving A box...if the numbers are that close to a vette whats that tell you...it doesn't leave much room for improvement!Oh..heres another racer trick..vacuum pump on the motor..can see 7-15 hp easily(lets see the arguments on that!).Theres and old seat of the pants test on aero's...go 50mph,neutral,coast..log time to 25mph....make changes,retest..takes along time but eventually you may hit on something..run the skinniest tires you can get away with...belly pan..close up the rear area below the bumper fwdto axle...theres more but this got too long already.....all food for thought...after thought,lose evey bit of weight you can..including 100 lbs of stereo equip,spare,evrything...once sawa 70's cadillac with the bIG motor turn 11 sec 1/4's,of course it was so stripped it was unstreetable,,..but it proved a point about WT
apply front and side flexible skirts (along with lowering)figure out best milage
at cruise and gear accordingly....tune...open up exhaust system...leave intake alone(you want small intake runners to keep velocity high to ensure the best possible atomization possible)..remove all intake obstructions,including any odd shaped curves and such....really other then a tune theres not much you can do to these motors... could try cam timing(experiment)..regrind the cam...shave door handles...plexiglass fog lites to smooth opening....slightly flare out front edge of front fenders to help evacuate air from front areas(air from radiator has to go somewhere,better to exit then go under car)..anything else you need a wind tunnel to find.wanna go race?Do a ProMod rear spoiler...gets rid of the back vacuum while allowing more rear downforce(not that you would see it below 80mph)
All common sense backyard fixes..you gotta remember your driving A box...if the numbers are that close to a vette whats that tell you...it doesn't leave much room for improvement!Oh..heres another racer trick..vacuum pump on the motor..can see 7-15 hp easily(lets see the arguments on that!).Theres and old seat of the pants test on aero's...go 50mph,neutral,coast..log time to 25mph....make changes,retest..takes along time but eventually you may hit on something..run the skinniest tires you can get away with...belly pan..close up the rear area below the bumper fwdto axle...theres more but this got too long already.....all food for thought...after thought,lose evey bit of weight you can..including 100 lbs of stereo equip,spare,evrything...once sawa 70's cadillac with the bIG motor turn 11 sec 1/4's,of course it was so stripped it was unstreetable,,..but it proved a point about WT
11-09-2008, 09:53 AM
#19
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Join Date: 03-31-2008
Location: CLEVELAND
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LOL, don't let him get you down...lol, he's been grumpy since he's in dire need of a bigger "snail".
I am not saying i cannot be done, I'm saying that it has ALREADY been done. That what GM does for a living...make cars....they put alot of money into this. Many other manufactures do also. Name a car that has equal of more cargo space and gets 32 on the hwy? If you want to do useful aero mods, take a look at the prius, insight and volt. Get out a hammer and start pounding on your roofline. Get used to that shape, you'll be seeing much more of it in the future unless we discover more oil than the Saudis have in the gulf of mex. I mean if you do all the stuff to your car in the above post (not a bash just making a point) what gain do you think you'll see.....? 2 mpg maybe 4...lets get crazy and say 5. That's brings you up to 37 on the highway, and you car will look like @SS! You can do better , but probably with maximum effort and minimal gain.
Or just hypermile when you want to conserve (yes I know you don't have an SS) and drop the hammer on honda with a big wing when applicable :) No mods required. I pulled 37.4mpg driving from akron-canton airport in Ohio, to Mohican national? forest about 2 months ago. Trust me its hilly arond mohican, and i never went below 60mph. Thats over 80 miles. Maybe if i was tuned, upped the pressure in my tires to 39psi tried it agin, i'd get 40 even. That's plenty...do you agree?
I am not saying i cannot be done, I'm saying that it has ALREADY been done. That what GM does for a living...make cars....they put alot of money into this. Many other manufactures do also. Name a car that has equal of more cargo space and gets 32 on the hwy? If you want to do useful aero mods, take a look at the prius, insight and volt. Get out a hammer and start pounding on your roofline. Get used to that shape, you'll be seeing much more of it in the future unless we discover more oil than the Saudis have in the gulf of mex. I mean if you do all the stuff to your car in the above post (not a bash just making a point) what gain do you think you'll see.....? 2 mpg maybe 4...lets get crazy and say 5. That's brings you up to 37 on the highway, and you car will look like @SS! You can do better , but probably with maximum effort and minimal gain.
Or just hypermile when you want to conserve (yes I know you don't have an SS) and drop the hammer on honda with a big wing when applicable :) No mods required. I pulled 37.4mpg driving from akron-canton airport in Ohio, to Mohican national? forest about 2 months ago. Trust me its hilly arond mohican, and i never went below 60mph. Thats over 80 miles. Maybe if i was tuned, upped the pressure in my tires to 39psi tried it agin, i'd get 40 even. That's plenty...do you agree?
Last edited by Clevelandhhrss; 11-09-2008 at 10:24 AM.
11-09-2008, 01:20 PM
#20
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I am not letting anyone get me down.
There are things that work and I want to take advantadge of them with in limits. The Honda that Mike has made all of the aerodynamic changes to gets excellent mileage but it is NOT for me! I want a car that looks nice and performs best for my needs. He has proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it works but it is not pretty. IMHO
I realize small changes make small differences but I still want to be careful that I am always making improvements and not hurting my goals.
Removing mirrors would help some but that would defeat the purpose by making it more dangerous and less fun to drive. Not worth it.
Clevelandhhrss, I completly agree that hypermiling tecniques will make a big difference but will not start on that until my mechanical mods are done. I do not want to mess up my results or testing. After that I will try to learn more about hypermiling. Like Mike with the Honda aeromods you have proved driving makes a difference. There is more than one way to skin a cat as they say.
Where you and I differ on opinions is mechanical mods. I beleive that with the right changes I can improve mileage and do not accept that the car is perfect for all uses from the factory. We agree on driving but I am not to that stage yet. For me it is one step at a time to test and verify.
I realize small changes make small differences but I still want to be careful that I am always making improvements and not hurting my goals.
Removing mirrors would help some but that would defeat the purpose by making it more dangerous and less fun to drive. Not worth it.
Clevelandhhrss, I completly agree that hypermiling tecniques will make a big difference but will not start on that until my mechanical mods are done. I do not want to mess up my results or testing. After that I will try to learn more about hypermiling. Like Mike with the Honda aeromods you have proved driving makes a difference. There is more than one way to skin a cat as they say.
Where you and I differ on opinions is mechanical mods. I beleive that with the right changes I can improve mileage and do not accept that the car is perfect for all uses from the factory. We agree on driving but I am not to that stage yet. For me it is one step at a time to test and verify.
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