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93 octane 89 octane E85 in SS
When I first got my HHR SS I ran NOTHING but 93 octane for many fillups. Everything ran fine. I wanted to experiment with 89 octane to see if there was a performance hit. GM recommends 93, but it is not required. There is no engine damage that results from the use of 89 octane fuel, the computer prevents it.
I noticed a couple of things: Acceleration was down slightly (seat of the pants) and I noticed that if I got on it hard the instant mileage readout went down considerably for a few miles. I think that was because of the aggressive timing retard to suppress pre-ignition. After a couple of miles the timing stepped up and mileage returned. The overall mileage was down a couple of mpg for a couple of tanks and then crept up to about the same as with 93 octane (26-27mpg in town and 35+ with cruise set to 65). I don’t get on it hard very often, so 89 octane seems to work fine for me. I currently have 40 miles left on my first tank of 104 octane E85. I think it will be my last unless I take my SS to the track. First, after about 9 miles on the full tank, the Check Engine Light came on and is still on. My SS usually runs at 199 water temp and it jumped to 207 for a while on the E85 driving sanely in town. The average mpg has come down to 22 and the highway mpg is down about 10mpg @ 65 with cruise set. Seat of the pants acceleration, on the other hand, is really up and my full boost, which is usually 15 pounds, was reading 17 psi! I don’t know how that is possible unless using a larger volume of E85 pushed the boost up (not likely because peak boost is usually controlled by the computer). It ran much stronger and was more fun to drive with my foot planted to the floor however! Impressive performance increase, but for daily driving on the street it is not worth the cost to me. I plan on filling up with gasoline tonight or tomorrow morning. |
Oh ya, I love having premium fuel in my baby. You're lucky you get 93, here in Canada we only get 91. Runs great still, but it would be nice to get the extra octane.
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Just out of curiosity did your HHR SS have a yellow fuel cap or a Flexfuel badge located on the rear? Cause as far as I know only the 2009+ HHR's with either the 2.2L LE8 or 2.4L LE9 are E85 compatible and the 2.0L LNF used in the SS is not E85 compatible, which would explain why your check engine light came on after filling up with E85.
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your running E85...in your SS...without a tune??? :eek: :nono:
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Kind of wondered about the E85 use, when I read it. I guess the other posters are thinking the same. The 2008 HHR SS 2.0 ltr. was NOT made for E85 fuel. So you MAY experience some problems, either initially or down the road.
A tune would be a good thing if you continue to use E85. But if it were me, I'd stick to 91-93 octane...(owners manual says 91, I believe). Your car, your choice.:wink: |
Back to Gas
Yes. It is not a flex fuel HHR. One tank will not cause any damage. All late model cars are designed to run on a percent alcohol. Using 70-85% (which is what pump E85 is) will not affect the motor much more than the 10-15% that most 93 octane contains. The problem with alcohol is that it damages gaskets and rubber seals in older cars. Since the government has required the use of ethanol in our gasoline all the manufactures have used materials to resist deterioration of seals because even a little alcohol, especially if the car is stored for a while can cause damage.
I filled up this morning with normal gasoline and the mileage, after about 25 miles, was back up to where it should be. When my SS is running right it gets 40mpg or better at 40mph. With the E85 it was getting 32mpg or less at 40mph. The check engine light is still on and was likely tripped somehow by the E85. In regards to an E85 tune: the purpose of this special tune is to take advantage of the 104 octane by providing more advanced timing. I could feel a difference because my computer did not have to back any timing out at full throttle as it does on lower octane fuel. It was an interesting experiment using E85, but it is not worth the extra expense for street driving. |
Originally Posted by Tyler Harvey
(Post 615243)
Oh ya, I love having premium fuel in my baby. You're lucky you get 93, here in Canada we only get 91. Runs great still, but it would be nice to get the extra octane.
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That's great Joe, I didn't know that. Here in Manitoba, we don't have Chevron. You're lucky.
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Originally Posted by Tyler Harvey
(Post 616026)
That's great Joe, I didn't know that. Here in Manitoba, we don't have Chevron. You're lucky.
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Finished Tank of Gasoline
Filled up with the second tank of gasoline yesterday. Mixed driving average for the tank is 27.0 mpg average, about 40 @ 40 and the check engine light went out after about 1/2 of the first tank.
Power is good, but the 104 E85 had a little more seat of the pants performance...:smile: When I get my new shifter I will get some numbers from the track. |
Ha Ha, that BC 94 chevron is crazy fun, my favorite part of the visit.:D
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They have 94 octane Under the Bridge?
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I wish ethanol would completely go away
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Originally Posted by Chevy13
(Post 617150)
I wish ethanol would completely go away
The new cars and unleaded gas today are a lot less trouble, and technology has advanced so that today's cars were not even dreamed about back then. Anything in the muscle car era with the real horse power that the HHR SS has today would have been able to cruise at 9 or 10 mpg and require a tune up, points, plugs, carb work etc every 12,000 miles. The 'Good 'Ol Days' required a LOT of maintainance...and fuel. |
Originally Posted by Black C5
(Post 616909)
Filled up with the second tank of gasoline yesterday. Mixed driving average for the tank is 27.0 mpg average, about 40 @ 40 and the check engine light went out after about 1/2 of the first tank.
Power is good, but the 104 E85 had a little more seat of the pants performance...:smile: When I get my new shifter I will get some numbers from the track. |
Originally Posted by Tyler Harvey
(Post 616026)
That's great Joe, I didn't know that. Here in Manitoba, we don't have Chevron. You're lucky.
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DO NOT use E85 in an engine which does not have "Flex Fuel" engine controls and fuel system.
Do not be "seduced" by the idea that E85 at service stations is always 105-octane. Do so and you risk engine damage and fuel supply system damage. E85 will damage the plastic, rubber and steel parts in a non flex-fuel fuel system. E85 is corrosive to metal parts of the fuel system which are not stainless steel. E85 will cause the engine to run lean at wide open throttle and that is the kiss of death for a turbocharged engine. The reason this is a problem is because E85 requires a more rich air-fuel mixture at WOT than does "normal" gasoline. Also, the E85 you may find in some parts of the country is inconsistent in its actual mix of gasoline and ethanol. It might be E85 but it also might be "E70" or "E60". This is because there is not much standardization amongst refiners and not a lot of regulation. This is also why flex-fuel systems have to "sense" the percentage of ethanol and alter the AFR accordingly. Now, if your smitten with the idea of E85 and your HHR is a flex-fuel vehicle, there are a number of racing gasoline products which can be relied upon to be truly E85. Rockett Brand Racing Gasoline, for example, is always 85% ethanol and is always 112-oct. Rockett Brand E85 is popular with some drag racers who run cars which have fuel systems modified to be compatible with E85. For more info on 112-oct E85 see: http://www.rockettbrand.com/techsupp...ept%202008.pdf |
Originally Posted by shael
(Post 617511)
you dont have petro in manitoba? they sell a 94 :)
Chevron is the only company on the Island that has 94 octane and at every station too! |
Originally Posted by Hib Halverson
(Post 617524)
DO NOT use E85 in an engine which does not have "Flex Fuel" engine controls and fuel system.
Do not be "seduced" by the idea that E85 at service stations is always 105-octane. Do so and you risk engine damage and fuel supply system damage. E85 will damage the plastic, rubber and steel parts in a non flex-fuel fuel system. E85 is corrosive to metal parts of the fuel system which are not stainless steel. E85 will cause the engine to run lean at wide open throttle and that is the kiss of death for a turbocharged engine. The reason this is a problem is because E85 requires a more rich air-fuel mixture at WOT than does "normal" gasoline. Also, the E85 you may find in some parts of the country is inconsistent in its actual mix of gasoline and ethanol. It might be E85 but it also might be "E70" or "E60". This is because there is not much standardization amongst refiners and not a lot of regulation. This is also why flex-fuel systems have to "sense" the percentage of ethanol and alter the AFR accordingly. Now, if your smitten with the idea of E85 and your HHR is a flex-fuel vehicle, there are a number of racing gasoline products which can be relied upon to be truly E85. Rockett Brand Racing Gasoline, for example, is always 85% ethanol and is always 112-oct. Rockett Brand E85 is popular with some drag racers who run cars which have fuel systems modified to be compatible with E85. For more info on 112-oct E85 see: http://www.rockettbrand.com/techsupp...ept%202008.pdf |
Originally Posted by Hib Halverson
(Post 617524)
DO NOT use E85 in an engine which does not have "Flex Fuel" engine controls and fuel system.
Do not be "seduced" by the idea that E85 at service stations is always 105-octane. Do so and you risk engine damage and fuel supply system damage. E85 will damage the plastic, rubber and steel parts in a non flex-fuel fuel system. E85 is corrosive to metal parts of the fuel system which are not stainless steel. E85 will cause the engine to run lean at wide open throttle and that is the kiss of death for a turbocharged engine. The reason this is a problem is because E85 requires a more rich air-fuel mixture at WOT than does "normal" gasoline. Also, the E85 you may find in some parts of the country is inconsistent in its actual mix of gasoline and ethanol. It might be E85 but it also might be "E70" or "E60". This is because there is not much standardization amongst refiners and not a lot of regulation. This is also why flex-fuel systems have to "sense" the percentage of ethanol and alter the AFR accordingly. Now, if your smitten with the idea of E85 and your HHR is a flex-fuel vehicle, there are a number of racing gasoline products which can be relied upon to be truly E85. Rockett Brand Racing Gasoline, for example, is always 85% ethanol and is always 112-oct. Rockett Brand E85 is popular with some drag racers who run cars which have fuel systems modified to be compatible with E85. For more info on 112-oct E85 see: http://www.rockettbrand.com/techsupp...ept%202008.pdf |
I try to stay away from ethanol completely...
Chevron 94 in BC is the only grade that contains ZERO ethanol :) its the only gas I run in my 08' SS.. |
Originally Posted by Hib Halverson
(Post 617524)
DO NOT use E85 in an engine which does not have "Flex Fuel" engine controls and fuel system.
Do not be "seduced" by the idea that E85 at service stations is always 105-octane. Do so and you risk engine damage and fuel supply system damage. E85 will damage the plastic, rubber and steel parts in a non flex-fuel fuel system. E85 is corrosive to metal parts of the fuel system which are not stainless steel. E85 will cause the engine to run lean at wide open throttle and that is the kiss of death for a turbocharged engine. The reason this is a problem is because E85 requires a more rich air-fuel mixture at WOT than does "normal" gasoline. Also, the E85 you may find in some parts of the country is inconsistent in its actual mix of gasoline and ethanol. It might be E85 but it also might be "E70" or "E60". This is because there is not much standardization amongst refiners and not a lot of regulation. This is also why flex-fuel systems have to "sense" the percentage of ethanol and alter the AFR accordingly. Now, if your smitten with the idea of E85 and your HHR is a flex-fuel vehicle, there are a number of racing gasoline products which can be relied upon to be truly E85. Rockett Brand Racing Gasoline, for example, is always 85% ethanol and is always 112-oct. Rockett Brand E85 is popular with some drag racers who run cars which have fuel systems modified to be compatible with E85. For more info on 112-oct E85 see: http://www.rockettbrand.com/techsupp...ept%202008.pdf |
Hmmmm, interesting didn't know any 2005 model HHR's were made. I know HHR's were made in 2005, but thought they were 2006. Must be one of a kind.
Good to know |
I just saw this--according to this dyno test, E-85 gives the 2009 and up 2.2L ecotec engine a 5hp and 8ftlb bump in power. I suspect the dyno would show an extra 5hp with 90-91 octane gasoline, too.
https://archives.media.gm.com/us/pow..._HHR_Combo.pdf |
Do you know what E-85 is?
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Originally Posted by donbrew
(Post 757023)
Do you know what E-85 is?
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Originally Posted by XtremeSS
(Post 757034)
:corny:
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Lol everyone thinks e85 is bad for your car but it's definitely not it burns cooler and cleaner than gas ( plus the 110 octane rating is nice e70 is about 105). In order to run it in the hhr you MUST be tuned for it. You don't need to change fuel pumps or lines or anything. In order to run full e85 and max boost you'll need a larger fuel pump lobe on your cam (zzp has them for 150). Yes it's corrosive but it's not hydrochloric acid lol. I've ran e85 in my last two cars (cobalt ss/sc 10k miles of e85 and a cobalt ss/tc 75k miles with the pre 10' seals). Now being that the tc cobalt and hhr are di cars the only thing that could go bad is injector seals, however gm changed these to the e85 safe injectors from the regal in the 10' model year. So 10's have nothing to fear. It's completely safe and actually helps to prevent valve coking which these cars are notorious for. Plus being able to another pick up 20-30 hp is on top of your tune is pretty sweet.
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Originally Posted by Shane H
(Post 757213)
. It's completely safe and actually helps to prevent valve coking which these cars are notorious for. Plus being able to another pick up 20-30 hp is on top of your tune is pretty sweet.
30HP more with E47, with good timing tables...:twothumbs: |
Originally Posted by 2005HHRauto
(Post 757686)
It really can't help prevent valve coking , as no fuel hits the back of the valves...:skull1:
30HP more with E47, with good timing tables...:twothumbs: |
Originally Posted by 2005HHRauto
(Post 757686)
It really can't help prevent valve coking , as no fuel hits the back of the valves...:skull1:
30HP more with E47, with good timing tables...:twothumbs: |
Originally Posted by XtremeSS
(Post 757711)
Well, theoretically, an e-85 blend shouldnt deposit as much carbon on our valves as quickly as gasoline itself.
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Originally Posted by firemangeorge
(Post 757719)
You're talking about direct injection with the SS 2.0 engine. So, theoretically it doesn't matter about the fuel because that fuel does not pass over the intake valves.
DI is way different, in many ways...:smile: You do have to change you engine oil, twice as often , with E47, because of Ethanol dilution...:skull1: |
Originally Posted by firemangeorge
(Post 757719)
You're talking about direct injection with the SS 2.0 engine. So, theoretically it doesn't matter about the fuel because that fuel does not pass by the intake valves. Only intake air goes by the intake valves.
Correction: after speaking with a vendor for our platform (who knows more about valve coking on our engines than anyone) the build up is mainly caused by blow-by gasses. E-85 or any high octane fuel would lessen the detonation so pistons ring flutter would be reduced/less blow-by. But in the end there are no real big differences to speak of. Although, If anyone is really worried that much about carbon build up on their valves, there is a product out there, designed for our engine, which helps prevent it. |
Originally Posted by XtremeSS
(Post 757723)
Right, I understand how direct injection work, But isn't the carbon build up on the valves caused by the ignition of the fuel inside the cylinders, or is it due to the oil that passes through the intake ducting? I would say both.
GM spent a ton of money making sure that the new V8s don't have this problem...:twothumbs: We can fix with this system: LNF PCV Anti-coking drain back system - Cobalt SS Network The instructions with the kit are comprehensive; it is essential that you either have clean valves or get them cleaned. This kit does not clean valves it prevents the continued deposition of oil on the intake valves. So far we have learned quite a bit about this coking issue. While DI valve coking is not unique to the LNF engine, its clear that bisecting the main vent line and inserting a drain back seperator does an effective job in the primary source of oil in the inlet tract. The inlet manifold pcv valve can be defective, and I have found it so in quite a few de coke jobs on LNF I have done. If the IM pcv valve is reluctant to close until high boost levels hit it, or doesnt close at all, the build up becomes severe and the car really runs badly. Sometimes I have encountered LNF with issues that the PCV upgrade evidentally could not deal with. Generally that has been cracked piston ring lands, damaged rings, or even broken charge pipes. If the engine health is good, its reasonable to expect the upgrade will keep your engine running well. |
No expert on this, but I think this thread has kind of strayed from the coking comment, to now include carbon buildup".
My description was really just talking about coking which occurs outside the combustion chamber on the valves. Carbon buildup would most likely be on the other side of the valves which would be inside the combustion chamber area. No real right or wrong here. Just think the "scope" of this thread got a little wide. |
Made a correction on my last post before I saw these last two posts
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