Turbo
03-24-2013, 09:18 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-22-2012
Location: Rogers City, Michigan
Posts: 1,012
Turbo
(I only got two replies on this message. I was looking for more responses on Turbochargers)
I intend to have a turbo installed in my '08 HHR 3 window panel later on this summer. I know very little about Turbos.
1. I would like to hear pros and cons about Turbos and Superchargers.
2. Would you install one on yours?
3. What would be the total cost, plus labor?
4. Do they hold up without too much maintenance?
5. What are maintenance problems?
6. Do they use more gasoline when driven normally?
I am sure there have been discussions about turbos here before but things change I would like to hear some fresh ideas. Any discussion will be appreciated.
Boydie
03-24-2013, 09:58 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: 02-19-2010
Location: Buffalo ny
Posts: 1,529
(I only got two replies on this message. I was looking for more responses on Turbochargers)
I intend to have a turbo installed in my '08 HHR 3 window panel later on this summer. I know very little about Turbos.
1. I would like to hear pros and cons about Turbos and Superchargers.
2. Would you install one on yours?
3. What would be the total cost, plus labor?
4. Do they hold up without too much maintenance?
5. What are maintenance problems?
6. Do they use more gasoline when driven normally?
I am sure there have been discussions about turbos here before but things change I would like to hear some fresh ideas. Any discussion will be appreciated.
Boydie
1. I would like to hear pros and cons about Turbos and Superchargers. Turbo's typically have lag(LNF is non existent with a twin scroll turbo)
[I] superchargers are "instant torque"
2. Would you install one on yours? I am already turbo'd, but if I was to do it on a non-turbo car, I would if I had the time, and a daily driver
3. What would be the total cost, plus labor?
Not sure, but it wouldn't be cheap....figure on $1,200+ for the turbo alone...then you may need to lower your compression(new pistons/rods)..then you would need a custom tune.
4. Do they hold up without too much maintenance? Not 100% sure on this answer...I know oil cooled are generally better than water cooled. the turbos on the lnf are pretty much maintenance free
5. What are maintenance problems? Turbo's don't last forever, depending on the brand, probably 100,000 miles is a guesstimation from me
6. Do they use more gasoline when driven normally? this depends on your right foot, and how you are tuned...turbo's can be used to get better mileage with the right setup(stock Chevy cruze turbo)
some one else will have more info i am sure....
FWIW, quite a few member have pieced together supercharger kits from the 06-07 cobalt SS's with good results too
03-24-2013, 11:16 PM
#3
Member
Join Date: 03-15-2013
Location: Norman, ok
Posts: 41
turbos
1. Turbos vs supercharger
Always much debate over this, usually most people run turbo on smaller engines and supercharger on larger. This is because supercharger requires some power to run it (belt turning pulley) where turbo uses free exhaust gasses to power it.
Main thing I like about superchargers the power is instant and at low rpm and feel it at part throttle, everyday driving. where turbo does not even start to boost until you go full throttle then boost has to build, the type and size of turbo determines if there is lag and how much total power is available. I love the setup on the hhr ss. When boost kicks in its a great feeling. Another benefit to turbo is when you are not putting your foot into it she drives like stock engine with stock fuel economy.
Most superchargers available for stock vehicles are low boost like 6 or 7 with no intercooler, there are exceptions to this. Really any higher boost should be intercooled. You are limited on how much you can increase boost usually have two alternate pully sizes to install. Where turbo although takes a lot more to install it can very easily be turned up and can go to really high boost levels with right setup, can even have more than one tune for different boost levels and switch between them with push of a button. Also easier to add intercooler and or watermeth injection or additional fuel injectors etc...
If there is a kit for your vehicle a supercharger is easier to install and easier if very little open space in engine bay. A turbo is also best advised to buy a kit designed for your vehicle trust me on this, however if one is not available you can with a good deal of work and money install turbo on anything. As I said on other thread you can save yourself a lot of headaches by buying car with factory installed turbo. I love turbos think they should be on everything, and they are my personal preference. I thought 300 HP and 315 torque with such a light car would be more than enough, however I find myself wanting more with a turbo setup I can do that....
I will answer some of your other questions in a different reply. There are some turbo forums out there that explain much more about this. The jbody forum also has a lot of info just have to read.
Always much debate over this, usually most people run turbo on smaller engines and supercharger on larger. This is because supercharger requires some power to run it (belt turning pulley) where turbo uses free exhaust gasses to power it.
Main thing I like about superchargers the power is instant and at low rpm and feel it at part throttle, everyday driving. where turbo does not even start to boost until you go full throttle then boost has to build, the type and size of turbo determines if there is lag and how much total power is available. I love the setup on the hhr ss. When boost kicks in its a great feeling. Another benefit to turbo is when you are not putting your foot into it she drives like stock engine with stock fuel economy.
Most superchargers available for stock vehicles are low boost like 6 or 7 with no intercooler, there are exceptions to this. Really any higher boost should be intercooled. You are limited on how much you can increase boost usually have two alternate pully sizes to install. Where turbo although takes a lot more to install it can very easily be turned up and can go to really high boost levels with right setup, can even have more than one tune for different boost levels and switch between them with push of a button. Also easier to add intercooler and or watermeth injection or additional fuel injectors etc...
If there is a kit for your vehicle a supercharger is easier to install and easier if very little open space in engine bay. A turbo is also best advised to buy a kit designed for your vehicle trust me on this, however if one is not available you can with a good deal of work and money install turbo on anything. As I said on other thread you can save yourself a lot of headaches by buying car with factory installed turbo. I love turbos think they should be on everything, and they are my personal preference. I thought 300 HP and 315 torque with such a light car would be more than enough, however I find myself wanting more with a turbo setup I can do that....
I will answer some of your other questions in a different reply. There are some turbo forums out there that explain much more about this. The jbody forum also has a lot of info just have to read.
03-25-2013, 12:16 AM
#4
Member
Join Date: 03-15-2013
Location: Norman, ok
Posts: 41
boosting questions
2. Would I put one on mine?
Yes and I did, the unfinished project I mentioned. When I get it going again I will only be able to run 10 or possibly less psi since it is a stock l61 ecotec, with stock compression and internals and even then I will have to run high octane probably with booster and retard my timing under boost so I don't pre detonate. That is the biggest risk to destroying your engine with boosting. Its a real sleeper car, I figured eventually I would build the engine and tune for more boost however already torque steer is pretty aggressive, much more than my hhr ss even though it is boosting to twenty. That may be partly the design of half shafts, but probably more due to the limited slip differential, traction control and stability control.
If your thinking of putting one on a non ss hhr I would prob still consider but would be much better to just buy an ss model. There are many differences between the two. To start with it is not the same ecotec as the others although very similar. Uses the lnf block which is stronger, has better cooling, has stronger internals to handle high HP levels, has lowered compression to better handle boost, the ss has different suspension, stronger half shafts axles,brakes, steering, steering wheel size, shifter size and type, modified steering sensitivity, wheels, shifter location, its lowered, I think different sway bars and bushings. Also already has boost gauge, and faster SPD on speedometer. If I'm wrong about any of this let me know. Now some other possible differences I need to research. Ss has launch feature and no lift shift not sure others do, may be different ecm and or os on it, radiator not sure if same.
Yes and I did, the unfinished project I mentioned. When I get it going again I will only be able to run 10 or possibly less psi since it is a stock l61 ecotec, with stock compression and internals and even then I will have to run high octane probably with booster and retard my timing under boost so I don't pre detonate. That is the biggest risk to destroying your engine with boosting. Its a real sleeper car, I figured eventually I would build the engine and tune for more boost however already torque steer is pretty aggressive, much more than my hhr ss even though it is boosting to twenty. That may be partly the design of half shafts, but probably more due to the limited slip differential, traction control and stability control.
If your thinking of putting one on a non ss hhr I would prob still consider but would be much better to just buy an ss model. There are many differences between the two. To start with it is not the same ecotec as the others although very similar. Uses the lnf block which is stronger, has better cooling, has stronger internals to handle high HP levels, has lowered compression to better handle boost, the ss has different suspension, stronger half shafts axles,brakes, steering, steering wheel size, shifter size and type, modified steering sensitivity, wheels, shifter location, its lowered, I think different sway bars and bushings. Also already has boost gauge, and faster SPD on speedometer. If I'm wrong about any of this let me know. Now some other possible differences I need to research. Ss has launch feature and no lift shift not sure others do, may be different ecm and or os on it, radiator not sure if same.
03-25-2013, 12:55 AM
#5
Member
Join Date: 03-15-2013
Location: Norman, ok
Posts: 41
cost of boosting
3. Cost?
This is hard to say because there are so many variables, a lot depends on your knowledge and your capabilities and whether new or used whether low end cheap china eBay stuff vs name brands.
Most kits are at least 3500 and up then you have to do yourself or pay to have done. Mine was custom so I hooked up turbo manifold, turbo, installed oil lines which required drilling and tapping into engine for oil return, hooked up my boost control and bypass dump valve and down pipe, mounted my intercooler, installed my filter and incoming air charge pipe then payed someone 1000 to weld up cold and hot side piping, weld in wideband sensor bung, weld in blowoff valve then I did the rest. I put in larger injectors then will probably cost me another 600 to get it tuned on a dyno.
Just the cost of turbo if you go name brand like Garrett they start at 750 and go up, you can easily spend several thousand just on turbo. Or you can buy Chinese eBay one for 100 most people say not to do this.
The cheap way or junkyard turbo build , I have two other future projects the wife says I cannot do I have to sell vehicles and parts. That's the agreement I made to buy the hhr. I have 2 used turbos off of a Saab, they are water and oil cooled t3/t4 hybrids. That is the way I was going to go next time. Only paid 275 a piece for them, they are Garretts have no damage or end play and one is freshly professionally rebuilt. They are internally wastegated so that cuts cost and simplifies. Usually can get turbo manifold for around 300, other components needed not sure on cost but probably between 200 - 1500 depending on what you get and the quality.
This is hard to say because there are so many variables, a lot depends on your knowledge and your capabilities and whether new or used whether low end cheap china eBay stuff vs name brands.
Most kits are at least 3500 and up then you have to do yourself or pay to have done. Mine was custom so I hooked up turbo manifold, turbo, installed oil lines which required drilling and tapping into engine for oil return, hooked up my boost control and bypass dump valve and down pipe, mounted my intercooler, installed my filter and incoming air charge pipe then payed someone 1000 to weld up cold and hot side piping, weld in wideband sensor bung, weld in blowoff valve then I did the rest. I put in larger injectors then will probably cost me another 600 to get it tuned on a dyno.
Just the cost of turbo if you go name brand like Garrett they start at 750 and go up, you can easily spend several thousand just on turbo. Or you can buy Chinese eBay one for 100 most people say not to do this.
The cheap way or junkyard turbo build , I have two other future projects the wife says I cannot do I have to sell vehicles and parts. That's the agreement I made to buy the hhr. I have 2 used turbos off of a Saab, they are water and oil cooled t3/t4 hybrids. That is the way I was going to go next time. Only paid 275 a piece for them, they are Garretts have no damage or end play and one is freshly professionally rebuilt. They are internally wastegated so that cuts cost and simplifies. Usually can get turbo manifold for around 300, other components needed not sure on cost but probably between 200 - 1500 depending on what you get and the quality.
03-25-2013, 01:36 AM
#6
Member
Join Date: 03-15-2013
Location: Norman, ok
Posts: 41
4,5,6
Reliability, maintenance, fuel cost?
Stock they are very reliable and usually last over 100,000 miles and like he said can be tuned for more or less fuel economy. Generally you will get slightly less mpg because you won't be able to resist the smile on your face. Most advertised performance mods I don't care for because the HP increase is so slight its not even noticeable and in fact may decrease low end HP and torque. Boost on the other hand is an improvement you can feel.
Non stock turbo install, most problems here is caused by people who do not truly understand how car ecm and narrowband gauges work. They think car will auto adjust to increased air, this is only true with low levels of boost on a system that uses maf sensor and even then often have to at least have boost referenced fpr. There is normally quite a bit of time tuning computer and timing to make it safe for increased power and then don't have to mess with it after get fuel system that is up to task and get it tuned.
Now most people are really pushing the limits of their vehicle and of course that is going to break things or require stronger components throughout the car and that my friend means lots of down time and lots of money. Even gm factory stage 1 turbo upgrade is squeezing a lot out of a tiny engine. A v8 putting out the same HP per liter would give around 900 HP, anywhere over 500 HP out of v8 things start to break love our little engines.
Hope that helps you make your decision. Others probably know lots more than I do but since you were not getting much response decided to put in my 2 cents.
Oh turbos cause a lot of heat and they spin at very high rpm, so number 1 use a good synthetic oil like mobile. Changing oil sooner than you normally would with non turbo car is good preventative. Also don't drive in boost right before you shut it off research turbo coking. Another thing you might have to do if adding one sometimes need to upgrade cooling system.
Stock they are very reliable and usually last over 100,000 miles and like he said can be tuned for more or less fuel economy. Generally you will get slightly less mpg because you won't be able to resist the smile on your face. Most advertised performance mods I don't care for because the HP increase is so slight its not even noticeable and in fact may decrease low end HP and torque. Boost on the other hand is an improvement you can feel.
Non stock turbo install, most problems here is caused by people who do not truly understand how car ecm and narrowband gauges work. They think car will auto adjust to increased air, this is only true with low levels of boost on a system that uses maf sensor and even then often have to at least have boost referenced fpr. There is normally quite a bit of time tuning computer and timing to make it safe for increased power and then don't have to mess with it after get fuel system that is up to task and get it tuned.
Now most people are really pushing the limits of their vehicle and of course that is going to break things or require stronger components throughout the car and that my friend means lots of down time and lots of money. Even gm factory stage 1 turbo upgrade is squeezing a lot out of a tiny engine. A v8 putting out the same HP per liter would give around 900 HP, anywhere over 500 HP out of v8 things start to break love our little engines.
Hope that helps you make your decision. Others probably know lots more than I do but since you were not getting much response decided to put in my 2 cents.
Oh turbos cause a lot of heat and they spin at very high rpm, so number 1 use a good synthetic oil like mobile. Changing oil sooner than you normally would with non turbo car is good preventative. Also don't drive in boost right before you shut it off research turbo coking. Another thing you might have to do if adding one sometimes need to upgrade cooling system.
03-28-2013, 07:32 AM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-04-2010
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 458
1. I would like to hear pros and cons about Turbos and Superchargers.
Turbos lag, but can create far more torque. SC setup is super fun. Instant power.
2. Would you install one on yours?
Yes. Either one. Having done a SC setup, I'd go with a turbo because of the overall power potential.
3. What would be the total cost, plus labor?
For a kit of either, $3-4k
4. Do they hold up without too much maintenance?
Very little maintenance if you keep it simple.
5. What are maintenance problems?
If you get power hungry, you will have issues. If you are content with 230-250whp you'll be less likely to have any problems. Auto/Manual? Count on a clutch if you approach 250whp.
6. Do they use more gasoline when driven normally?
City driving yes. Cruising no. You will be using premium fuel.
Turbos lag, but can create far more torque. SC setup is super fun. Instant power.
2. Would you install one on yours?
Yes. Either one. Having done a SC setup, I'd go with a turbo because of the overall power potential.
3. What would be the total cost, plus labor?
For a kit of either, $3-4k
4. Do they hold up without too much maintenance?
Very little maintenance if you keep it simple.
5. What are maintenance problems?
If you get power hungry, you will have issues. If you are content with 230-250whp you'll be less likely to have any problems. Auto/Manual? Count on a clutch if you approach 250whp.
6. Do they use more gasoline when driven normally?
City driving yes. Cruising no. You will be using premium fuel.
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