Brembo Upgrade Questions
 

Hello all,

I am looking to install the reman BREMBOs from your local auto parts store on my 2007 HHR 2LT 2.4L A/T 17” rims.

I just need a little help with a few things and want to make sure I have everything before I order anything.

The list:
rotors
pads
calipers
caliper pin kit
3mm wheel spacers
front brake lines that work with brembos
hub spacer

Questions:
Where can I purchase the hub spacer and is it necessary?
Do I need to change out the front brake lines?
The brake lines that it calls out at the auto parts store are shorter than the single piston brake lines, I have seen this part number 25954272 thrown around?
Do Wagner brake pads come with replacement pins and hardware needed like other pads do, so ordering the hardware is not needed?
Am I missing anything?

Reference link:
https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/brak...-06-2lt-41839/

Thank you

If you get a "loaded" caliper it should include everything, sometimes even the bracket (which I think you need).

I don't know what the difference between hub spacer and wheel spacer is. The object is to make room for the larger caliper.

The hub spacer according to ZZP helps center the caliper over the rotor as some years have shorter spindles and it would create uneven wear on the pads.

The 3mm spacers then allow my 17” 2LT rims to work?

Hmm, what bracket?

Reference:

No bracket with the Brembo's, the caliper IS the bracket. The non Brembo SS brakes used a bracket and that is needed to do that conversion to a non SS HHR.

Yes, and I have the non Brembo SS bracket set up on the car now.

I have a 3mm spacer behind the rotor to bring it out a bit and then some small washers to bring out the caliper.

The reason I did that is because when I first installed them they were rubbing.

so I am hoping that means I have the larger spindles and there is no need for the hub spacer? I would rather have the hub spacer and not need it though, then need it and not have it?

Unless someone can confirm it fits on a 2007 2LT no modification to hub?

The answers are probably in the 500 result from typing "brembo" into the search; I'm not doing it so I will let you spend your time on it.

Yes there is a lot of info on SS upgrades but only one on a LT upgrade with 17” rims.

I just want to make sure before I buy a bunch of parts.

It looks like the 2007 2LT brake lines will work fine?
They are longer then the 2008 SS brembo brake lines and have the same banjo fitting.

I am hoping the MX1379 Wagner brake pads come with all the required hardware to install the pads, including the pins and pad plates?

That would make the new list:
rotors (Wagner BD180235E)
pads (Wagner MX1379)
calipers (Remanufactured Brembos)
3mm wheel spacers (on hand)
hub spacer (unknown)

I have been searching for as much info as possible, hopefully more join in soon.

If the pins don't come with the calipers, you need to make sure the pads you get have them included. The pins don't appear to be part of the "hardware included" that many ads state. They seem to be an additional part.
I did a quick scan thru RockAuto's listings. I know that some of the pictures aren't always accurate but none of the Wagner pads listed show those pins.
The only ones showing a pic of the pins were a couple of the Power Stop pads.

This ZZP catalogue shows the hub spacers.
I don’t know if they are sold separately.

https://zzperformance.com/products/12-25-inch-front-brake-kit-with-brembo-callipers

but I like this kit better , with a nice set of 18 inch rims!

https://zzperformance.com/products/z...ront-brake-kit

Ok, I will add the pin kit.
What about the pad plates, do those come with the pads?

I do not want to get 18’s, my 17’s are good for me and the tires are a good price.

I will call ZZP today.

I was just wishing, for my HHR, my 16’s are just fine.

ZZP will not sell the spacers separate.
They want you to buy the whole kit from them. :(

Oh, now that’s not nice!
3mm thick , what about the splash spacer the comes on the LS/LT

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.che...426760827.jpeg
Part #5, perhaps double of that to move the hub out to centre the rotor in the calliper.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.che...03975fa76.jpeg
So much for that idea, only .9 mm thick. I don’t recommend stacking them.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.che...2879e9a18.jpeg
This one was 0.8 mm thick , but you have a pattern. Now some 3 mm thick metal and a few hours fabricating

I do not know if they are 3mm hub spacers, but the brembo install from the guy with an LT on here used a 1/8” wheel spacer which is about 3mm to allow his 17” rim not to hit.

When I upgraded to the non brembo SS caliper bracket and rotor I had to put a thin washer behind the caliper and a 3mm wheel spacer behind the rotor not the wheel.

I did this to center the rotor with the caliper as it was rubbing.

so sadly I think that means I have the shorter spindles and it may not work. Or it could be that SS bracket and factory caliper did not get along well.

Maybe the Brembo one will fit together better, since it is not two different parts that are not really meant for each other.
The LT install did not mention the need for the hub spacers though, but who knows he could have had longer spindles with a different year.

I might have to order just one caliper and do a fit check for both rim hitting and rotor centering.

I bought my spacers on summit racing, this ZZP kit came after my original write up on how to do this. I bought my calipers from a junk yard that shipped them to me. The Front Brembo Calipers do not have any brackets like a traditional Caliper. the Bracket is built into the Caliper which makes the whole process of changing your pads and Rotors much easier. the below aren't the exact spacers i used but you get the idea. I only used the spacers because on my 2006 2LT the 17 inch wheels were real close to the caliper and i was afraid of them rubbing/touching . See my original post form 7 years ago for some great pics by members and others. its a very easy upgrade for the fronts. good luck.

https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/brak...-06-2lt-41839/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/g...CABEgL3p_D_BwE

So you didn’t need the place a spacer between the steering knuckle and hub.

You do realize that this is a purely cosmetic upgrade, right? There will be no improved braking under 95% of circumstances. You free to do as you choose, but if your ABS module and master cylinder aren't replaced, well you could get the same thing by painting your calipers...

The ABS module is a different part number , but what would be the difference? Line Pressure? Wheel speed variation ?

After replacing my calipers with lifetime ones at orielly auto parts, they rust. I have replaced them twice and they rust immediately. After trying to get my money back they told me that rust is normal as long as they still work. So I am done with that, the front wheels look like the car is a million years old because of all the rust.

These are powder coated and are more hassle free. So in order to keep my money they will let me upgrade and move my lifetime core charge to these new ones assuming I can get everything to fit and work.

I was told there is no difference between master cylinders or other other parts and you will get the improved braking from the four cylinders?

And about the spacers, they would be used to center the rotor between the caliper, because the brembos do not have a bracket there will not be any rubbing issues as there are cylinders on each side. So it should still work without hub spacers but would be recommended for even pressure and wear if it doesn’t line up, some line up fine.

Who would think it: cast iron exposed to the elements would rust? New calipers are coated with oil, rebuilt the oil gets washed off.

There are places that would powder coat your calipers, there are spray paints made for the job, there are coatings made for the job.

True, but my originals never rusted. Must of had a factory coating of some kind in addition to the oil?

So I assumed a reman would be the same, and they do come in a bag that is oiled.

Painting or powder coating is an added cost compared to the brembo kit. It is cheaper to install the brembos.

I am getting my core charge transferred as well as my lifetime brake pads. Plus, they will definitely look nice.

I am waiting for a phone call today from the auto parts store to see if they are getting the calipers back in stock. They ran out last week.

Am I going to have a problem with my ABS module? Is the master cylinder truly under powered? I don’t think there has been a problem with anyone else that did this upgrade?

But the Brembos will look better if you paint them a different color. That drab, dull gray original color just didn't look good to me. A can of spray caliper paint made a world of difference for mine.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.che...46d66e2c9c.jpg

These are not the factory SS brembos, these are aftermarket brembos from the auto parts store. Just to remind everyone, there may be some differences from those members who have upgraded to factory SS brembos.

They are supposed to be remanufactured, so I assume they sand blast the core and de-badge it and then rebuild and re-powder coat. But I could be wrong.

Link and pics? So we have a better idea what you're working with.

They say brake best.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...=Caliper&pos=7

I just assumed that company gathered brembos and remanufactured them.

Says "Brembo design" they don't claim to even be made by Brembo. Hard to say what it is.

No, it's the programming. The software is specific to the brake package. The hydraulics on most models are real similar now, but the software is not. It's "firmware" in the module, too. Dealers don't get access to it. It's the secret sauce of TRW (now ZF), Bosch, Delphi, or Continental.

It won't be optimal, but actual problems probably won't surface. The programming for your ABS module was for your OEM calipers and pads. As you dial up the braking capability, you are more likely to lock the brakes up in a skid because the braking ability gets you there (skid) quicker.

Ordinary use won't matter. I would pull the ABS fuse if you want to track it or anything like that. ABS is intrusive anyway, but after this kind of upgrade, it really doesn't know how to act properly in threshold braking situations.

Ok, here comes some thinking...

So having the same brake booster and master cylinder with the new four piston brembo front calipers and factory programmed ABS module will result in potentially dangerous braking situations under heavy pedal use, especially on slippery road surfaces.

TCS and ABS would be at risk.

I currently have the large non brembo SS rotor and caliper bracket. I assume the non brembo SS rotor is the same size for the brembo? And I read on a different post on here that the non brembo SS caliper is actually less pressure than the LS or LT caliper. So this combination gives you equivalent LT/LS higher pressure piston braking over the larger SS rotor which would result in better braking per wheel rotation than both non brembo SS or standard LS/LT options, while still not affecting the ABS algorithm?
(My car brakes normal, how would I test, what MPH do I slam the brakes on?)

Hopefully I have my info correct thus far.

Assuming the rotor size doing the brembo upgrade would be about the same as the non brembo SS bracket upgrade, so now it’s a matter of braking pressure correct?

Four pistons allow for even distribution on the brake pads for smoother braking. But how much pressure are the LT/LS calipers vs. the Brembo calipers.

I don’t know the answer, I am hoping you guys will add to this. But if it is the same or similar piston pressure, the algorithm should still work talking to all the wheel speed sensors?

If not, can a brembo abs be purchased and installed on the car with no modifications?
And will this work for me who still has drums in the back?

Brembo rotors are bigger than the regular SS rotors. Regular HHR rotors are the smallest. I copied the EBC listed rotor sizes from an old post.

GD7375
Rotor; EBC 3GD Series Sport Slotted Rotors; Set of Two; Front; 10.9 in. Dia.;
GD7265
Rotor; EBC 3GD Series Sport Slotted Rotors; Set of Two; Front; 11.7 in. Dia.;
GD7507
Rotor; EBC 3GD Series Sport Slotted Rotors; Set of Two; Front; 12.4 in. Dia.;

The four piston Brembo calipers provide more clamping force, then the SS non Brembo calipers .
This swap has been done before, I don’t recall any problems resulting from it.

Ok, that is only a 1.5” bigger rotor, split that in half and that’s .75” extra vertical pad area. So far not too bad.

Does anyone know piston force differences between the LS/LT and Brembo?

And what about the ABS module swap?

Not sure but I don't think it's measured that way. Since the brake master cylinder creates the hydraulic pressure to the calipers, then it would seem that the piston force would be the same if using the same master cylinder.

(OK. Now my head hurts. Too much thinking, way too early in the morning. :dizzy: )

I was thinking the same thing, just more even distribution with four pistons right.

so similar braking forces, just smoother better braking.

So ABS should be good?

What is the total area of all 4 pistons vs the single piston one ? Once that is known then the bore size of the master has to be known.
Being that these cars use a "proportioning valve" Don't know how to give any advice on that.
Here's something to read:
Outlaw Disc Brakes

Yeah, this is the right idea. The new caliper has additional capability, but the hydraulic pressure will still be the same. You will get more even clamp force as Gio suggested, from 4 pistons instead of 2, but not vastly better braking.

I don't know if the master cylinders are that much different or not, in terms of capacity. I do know that the electronics are the "tuning" for threshold braking. Without running controlled trials with lots of parts, you may never find THE answer.

I don't expect you to run into serious daily issues with your lack of snow and slush in Southern California. Really. One tire on ice, one tire on pavement. Now that's where ABS really matters in keeping you straight.

Ok, crunching numbers from your link CAT MAN HHR.

Brake caliper:
SS non brembo uses a single piston that creates .56sq.in. of piston area.
LS/LT uses a single piston that creates .7sq.in. of piston area.
SS Brembo uses 4 pistons that create 1.12sq.in. of piston area.
That is a .42sq.in. difference in piston area between the the LS/LT and .56sq.in. difference (exactly half) between the non brembo SS.

So you guys are right, equal pressure but more piston area. A .75” taller rotor area plus larger pad size. Thats more friction area, which would result in better braking capability.

But, how much is too much for the LS/LT ABS module algorithm???

Looks like LS/LT models are better off with this upgrade than the non brembo SS guys though based on caliper area.

At least we have done our research, might have to stick to what I have and just paint them for safety concerns.

A good read: https://ebcbrakes.com/how-to-choose-...big-brake-kit/