Are unions killing America?
 

American manufacturing has been in decline for years.
Our textile industry moved overseas a long time ago.
The steel mills like wise have relocated.
Today, companies have "outsourced" many of their services to third parties located in other countries.
And most recently, GM and Ford are laying tens of thousand off and circling their wagons.
Large manufacturing companies operate under a huge burden with employment costs and benefits.

Have the Unions forced America into becoming a "consumer" rather than the "supplier"?

I am sure all of you have seen local union companies going bankrupt, even the President of the United States has commented on the out of control wages in the auto industry. In this economy can we really afford for this to continue?

IMHO, the post is simplifying it too much: Let's be honest and say that a multitude of things have led to America's downturn, be they labor-, economic-, social-, industrial-, or financial-related aspects. However, such views are based on the assumption that America has been "superior" or "doing it right" to begin with. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with either of these statements; I'll simply state that it can't be pinned down to one factor.

The republicans are whats killing America with their less government which is fine with me but they do away with the ones that are keeping their buddies honest and during Bush no one was watching the cookie jar. As far as unions go sure they have gotten some nice wage/benefit packages for their members but what can they do when they go to the table and management says we don't have any money and the union asks to see the books to prove it cause they just gave their CEO a huge multi million dollar bonus which can only mean they are doing well and so their must be plenty of money to go around. Sound familier?

My 2¢, this thread won't last long.

Ditto

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...chdrama8jm.gif
Just gonna watch
where this one goes!

Post 1 was borrowed from another forum and it turned into a good thread with zero arguments. I do not see why the same can not occur here.

My personal experience in a short summary:
I grew up in a coal town in KY and some of the mines were union and some were not. Several relatives worked in both and all always said to me that the union mines did pay a little better but with the strikes and the union fees and the stress that they ended up making the same or less but were miserable at work because it divided the company into two distinct groups (them and us, management and employees).

Just from what I see on the news and witnessed growing up I honestly feel that unions are a bad thing for everyone. Yes you may make more $ on the short term but you risk losing your job when the company goes bankrupt or moves their locations to China or where ever. I also have personally witnessed how angry and violent a lot of union people get, that is never a good thing.

I think its too complex of an issue to boil it down to one factor. While its a big factor in some industries like cars, its not so much in others. Unions are no where near the strong influence they were 30 or 40 years ago. What I think is more important is that we, as consumers have forced manufacturers, union and non-union both, into going over seas for production. We demand lower prices and don't care as much about quality as we did in times past. Walmart's success is a poster child for this.

That is an excellent post and very true. I do agree with you 100% on the walmart issue, they are killing small businesses and we as consumers should see that and try to spend at least some of our money with small businesses. I owned a few small businesses a few years ago and I know how the big corporations can come in agressively and kill off the little guy. I know this from experience unfortunately.

On a lighter side, if you ever watch south park did you catch the episode about walmart? They had a hysterical and very clever episode about our addiction to walmart. If you have not seen it I reccomend giving it a watch lol.

If you search the forum you will see all the UNION threads and know why I stated what I did. These threads do nothing but start confrontations and flaming. I am surprised that you wouldn't know that when you started it and you have already stated your disdain for unions in other threads so I question your motive of starting this thread.

Personally I don't care one way or the other about unions or the opinion that they killed America. America died in 1959 in Clear Lake Iowa. Everyone knows that.

I will make sure this one stays civil or it will close.

is ther nothing else to do then to beat a dead horse? does it matter one way or another what people feel on this issue? i too question the motive on this subject.for one thing there isnt enough unions to kill america. greed from all sides played the downard spiral for this country. can you honestly say if all unions were gone this country would be in great shape? look how many unions are in other countries. we must be the only ones doing crappy because of unions. wait a minute, china is not a union country, all their workers must be living in the lap of luxury. living in modest 3 bedroom ranch homes with 3 or 4 kids, a dog and a couple of cars out front. wait that isnt luxury thats just living. well anyways they must be living good i bet. wait maybe its japan with all of thier non-union, they must be living pretty good. no maybe its germany, or maybe russia, india maybe. im so confused. some where out there is a country just thriving because there is no union. just gotta be

Go ahead and close it if you feel it will start issues, that was not the intention of the thread. I haven't seen any issues in it yet but if that is the direction it is headed then feel free to just delete the entire thread.

No I did not search the site to see any past union threads, I usually do not search every topic I post about on forums since on other sites i frequent threads rarely if ever start flame wars. If that is necessary on this site due to sensitivity or maturity issues then I doubt I will be posting much more on here if every topic and post requires members to "walk on eggshells".


I thought this forum section was for general chit chat and discussions, I suppose I was mistaken.

Please delete this thread.

Zappa Said it this way
 

Mr. Zappa always had a special way with words.

---
This is a song about the union, friends
How they ****ed you over and the way they bends
The rules to suit a special few
And you gets pooched every time the do

Once upon a time the idea was good
If only they'd a done what they said they would
It ain't no better, they's makin' it worse
The labor movement's got the Mafia curse

Don't be no fool, don't be no dope
Common sense is your only hope
When the union tells you it's time to strike
Tell the mother****er to take a hike
You know we gotta stick together

Stick Together
by Frank Zappa
---

It is and I will not take action at this time. As I said discuss/debate it without flaming and all is good. That is not directed at you but rather everyone.

Watch out where those huskies go and don't you eat that yellow snow--Frank Zappa

So far so good!
It's one thing to start a thread that is a fired topic and another to sit back to read what others have to say. I don't agree with posting after every reply to counter point a disagreeing argumentative view to try to convince every one your point of view either by the poster or a respondents post.

Again, as I have said numerous times, it's the personal and insulting posts that get threads closed or deleted.
Keep things in check and I see no need to close this thread (at the moment), unless JonyyB sees otherwise.

Not sure about America, but they did in the printing industry!!

Killing America? No. They only help to ruin companies.

Needed or are of any use in the country? Again, No.

If you quote this, you are only trying to start something, so don't. Don't ask for an opinion and start a debate. :lockd:

Of course it is not litterally "killing America" lol :lol:

No, unions are not killing America. Americans not buying/prohibited from buying American are killing America. What goes around comes around.

Teachers Unions are killing America. What happens when the children are ruined?

Now that just don't make much sense. I have known many teachers throughout the years and 99% of them are loyal to the children. It's the childrens parants who are ruining them. Teachers have them about 6 1/2 hours a day and the parants the rest of the time. Don't take no rocket scientist to see who is screwing them up.
================

The Unions do not have the power they once did, all city state federal unions now have no strike clauses.

As far as GM, I blame Union Management, you need to be competitive with the competition, it doesn't mean you have to match them, but they do a better job at a lesser cost. No wonder the industry popped. they didnt follow good business sense.

I belong to a Union and they completely dissatisfy me, we get a whopping 1% raise, more if the state meets a tax revenue collection goal this year (duh, were in a recession, with businesses closing everyday) but the president gets a paid trip to the convention.

OK here's my take, why is it the first one everyone goes after is the unions. Can anyone till my why all your CEO's VP's etc.of alot of our companys make 7 to 8 figures a yr. whats wrong with this picture, you can't till me anyone is worth that kind of money. And yes I'm a card caring UAW :one: member and damn proud of it. Sorry that's my take.

Greed is killing American and Unions have there greedy little hands in the cookie jar that the TAX payers are now paying for. I am soooo glad that we BAILED OUT GM. We Saved them!!! B.S. They still when under and we got crap for our money. Thank You MR Obama

Attachment 33027

Looks like CM's 2 cents has been devalued. :lol:

whats there to debate...the facts state it all....
union pushes for wages..those wages get pushed onto the public....public carries a higher debt.....public gets greedy with easy credit....the water balloon pops.....everybody gets wet. Sure theres lots more to this...many sourcesbut unions don't rely on mom and pop businesses,,they go after the big boys so when they fall everybody feels it,,,,, nothing was learned when the aircraft and steel companies fell. You can only squeeze a company so much before it starts bleeding.

I don't get that, but ok if you say so.

i am a union electrican........... do i agree with everything.. no,
and nether does those of you that are non union, no one agrees with everything that their company they work for does.
I have to agree with ron, when things go wrong the first person that people want to blame is the union, but what about looking at those so called ceo's(i dont care automakers, or other) make those ungodly amounts of money, or get those outrageous bonus, or when they leave get those so call packages, of Millions of dollars,.
and helping out those big dogs in NY that got their bonuses..... geez.... WAKE UP, think of how many people's benefits could have been paid for.
Unlike what some of you all think, in my local union if i dont do my job i get fired, if those big shots cant get a company turn around ..... well here is several millions of dollars sorry it didnt work out.
That is what makes me sick..... GREEDY CEO that are flunkies and get paid for it.......
If you do your job, great thats what your supposed to do. if you dont hit the rode jack, but dont be asking for any give me's either.
went for 5 years WITHOUT a raise, why dont some of those politicans, and ceo do the same, maybe that might help
Because you sure dont deserve it

and another thing,, its not the unions, that mark up car (camero) by $5000.00 ........ like that is going to bail GM out. could probally sell more vehicles if they weren't so greedy.....

Another interesting point. Southwest Airlines is the most heavily unionized airline in the industry, yet is the only one making any money. Of course, they got hit earlier in the fiscal year when their fuel hedges went bust with the drop in oil prices, but they're still going to be profitable for the year anyway.

It all comes down to building a product that people want to buy. I've learned my lesson arguing for American cars to all of my import-loving friends, but in the end when people get stuck on a Camry, that's all they want to buy. It's interesting that Honda and Toyota have kept nameplates around like Accord, Civic, Camry, and Corolla for years, but when GM and Ford dropped Lumina, Cavalier, Grand Am, Grand Prix, Cutlass, Taurus, and Continental, all of their sales went to crap within a model year or two. I knew Pontiac renaming their models with the "G" series would kill the line, but I didn't think it'd kill the whole brand.

Also, some dealers are marking up the Camaro, not all. GM does not make ANY extra money when a dealership does that. GM has more orders for that car than they can keep up with, mostly due to supplier capacity.

When do the CEOs take their cuts to save companies?...NEVER, unless someone like Obama tells them that they have to, you would never see CEOs do it out of trying to save a company., They are all psychotic out of control greedy lunatics that couldn't care less about the little guy...union or not. Wake Up!!

Globalization that has been developed by all the countries and agreed upon by our governments have buried our industries. the agreements between third world countries have cxaused ours to turn into a toilet. Every year a bigger flush is heard. Blame the politicians responsible, PERIOD.

Southwest operated smart..they only fly one type aircraft..had their routes picked out and didn't get greedy. Their supply inventories were simple because of one type aircraft, which also means training and tooling and maintenance was streamlined.They didn't have to have several maintenance facilities to support different aircraft either.They took a hit on fuel but so did everybody else.Management is what made them..and management is what failed the auto makers because they didn't reel in the excessive costs associated with the unions and yes, the CEO's also. Soley blame unions? Maybe not, but a good portion of it.Unions told management what to do and how THEy were going to do it.Southwest didn't allow that.The auto makers got pushed into the corner and didn't now how to get out of it without taking a very large hit, or endless strikes...the financial crash was a blessing in disguise as they now had an out, otherwise it would have caught up anyways and without an excuse besides internal failure. The crash just speeded up the process.

I know what you mean about NO RAISE :(:( I haven't seen one in over 6 Yrs.. We also are working with a 2 different wage scales in our company to keep up with foreign pay & none union shops, and the CEO's sure as hell still get their BIG payouts each yr. it shows that in our year end reports.

well said Cokeybill

All the time. Many CEO's who take over leadership of unprofitable companies or entities in receivership will often times waive their salary. Lee Iacocca is a famous example of such a leader. The CEO's job is to make the company profitable and maximize shareholder value. The Chairman's job is to make sure the CEO is doing his job. When you have both a Chairman and CEO one in the same, you will probably have some issues with profitability in the long run.

Obama has never told a CEO to take a pay cut. All he did was fire two of the best leaders the auto industry ever had, Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz. The Republicans crucified them for asking for help, and the Democrats have sealed the tomb. Neither Chrysler or Ford would have come to DC hat-in-hand if Wagoner hadn't shown up too, business jet or not. I include Ford in that because they are getting a "silent" bailout from the DOE for "green vehicles". Much like GE getting billions in "seed money" to create a universal electronic medical records database. It is what it is.

the town i live in is prounion.I do not like union because there was a company that was going to build an airline manintance hanger at the local airport and the company call ramcor nonunion could not get a loan because all the banks and credit unions are prounion .Then Saturn was going to come in and they are a nonunion comany at the time and they were also blacked balled .they were going to higher in about 20,000 people to work for them and I went to tech school to go to work for them ..i had to stay and take care of my mom .so i could not move with saturn.:mad::poke:

Saturn was never non-union. I don't think they had the capacity to support 20,000 workers, either The UAW didn't exactly care much for the Local in Spring Hill, though.