Starting RWD Conversion, Donor Car First
10-24-2015, 12:54 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: 08-03-2010
Location: Lake Ronkonkoma, N.Y.
Posts: 3,564
Yes it is:
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...ages/8-8_1.JPG
Wish the person that started this thread would chime in.
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...ages/8-8_1.JPG
Wish the person that started this thread would chime in.
10-27-2015, 07:54 PM
#24
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-30-2015
Location: Portland Oegon
Posts: 58
Okay, I'm back. Sorry for the delay, we had to finish the roof and install the widows on the front and back porch build - starting to rain..
So,, Managed to gut all of the interior and start on the engine / trans extraction. I really don't like these FWD setups, engine removed from the bottom.. I did more measuring re clearances and will post that soon.. Unfortunately I had to remove the fuse box and wiring from the firewall forward, it was just in the way of progress and I & already have too many cuts and scratches from the Gutting process... And once again, the wiring in these new Cars including the HHR's is, well I can't put it text...
I also made another decision. I am going to complete Two HHR Builds,, Engine / Trans / IRS swaps (rear wheel drive) The first will be the DOHC Turbo (pushed up a bit) Ecotec LE5 with the Solsice 5 speed Aisin manual trans. At this point prob will utilize a Solstice IRS, maybe with the Caddy Diffy. Once I get the engine and trans out of the Donor car I can get down to cutting the tunnel just aft of the firewall. But, according to my tape measure it seems that the LE5 & 5 speed manual will fit without wiring mods, well other than some engine sensor re-routing. \
So what this means is for my HHR Panel,, A LE5 RWD swap build will not need a re-wire, I still want Her for a Daily Driver "DD" . There will definitely be cutting between the firewall and back to the shift console,, mostly widening.. The Aisin trans is just a few inches too wide. But I'll know more once the old engine & trans are gutted... In the end we'll prob fab a fiberglass cover, keep it simple. The frame and diify fitment will follow after the LE5 & 5 speed are "Stuffed" into place..
The second Build,, prob another a LS motor,, the T-56 trans and the Gen-5 Camaro IRS, which I already have gathering dust. This build will be just for fun, and not a daily driver. My Son & I are thinking,, !/8th mile Fun. As neither of us are willing to race our Vette's at the track... The debate is another LS1 build or just jump into a LS6. My Sons 2004 Vette Le Mans edition's LS6 & 6 Speed is a phenomenal combo, so why not
There is more than enough clearance for the LE5 to fit without hacking the Firewall, which a tough job. A V6, aluminum motor, might just fit too, but I will not know until, again, the old FWD engine and trans is gutted..
Some progress photos
THe first photo is the old engine with wiring, air cleaner etc removed. But the second is looking over the exhaust manifold, lots of space back there
Next is the rear view, gutted interior and the last is the spot where the tuneel section just a few inches behind the firewall will need to be enlarged, forward of my hand.
So,, Managed to gut all of the interior and start on the engine / trans extraction. I really don't like these FWD setups, engine removed from the bottom.. I did more measuring re clearances and will post that soon.. Unfortunately I had to remove the fuse box and wiring from the firewall forward, it was just in the way of progress and I & already have too many cuts and scratches from the Gutting process... And once again, the wiring in these new Cars including the HHR's is, well I can't put it text...
I also made another decision. I am going to complete Two HHR Builds,, Engine / Trans / IRS swaps (rear wheel drive) The first will be the DOHC Turbo (pushed up a bit) Ecotec LE5 with the Solsice 5 speed Aisin manual trans. At this point prob will utilize a Solstice IRS, maybe with the Caddy Diffy. Once I get the engine and trans out of the Donor car I can get down to cutting the tunnel just aft of the firewall. But, according to my tape measure it seems that the LE5 & 5 speed manual will fit without wiring mods, well other than some engine sensor re-routing. \
So what this means is for my HHR Panel,, A LE5 RWD swap build will not need a re-wire, I still want Her for a Daily Driver "DD" . There will definitely be cutting between the firewall and back to the shift console,, mostly widening.. The Aisin trans is just a few inches too wide. But I'll know more once the old engine & trans are gutted... In the end we'll prob fab a fiberglass cover, keep it simple. The frame and diify fitment will follow after the LE5 & 5 speed are "Stuffed" into place..
The second Build,, prob another a LS motor,, the T-56 trans and the Gen-5 Camaro IRS, which I already have gathering dust. This build will be just for fun, and not a daily driver. My Son & I are thinking,, !/8th mile Fun. As neither of us are willing to race our Vette's at the track... The debate is another LS1 build or just jump into a LS6. My Sons 2004 Vette Le Mans edition's LS6 & 6 Speed is a phenomenal combo, so why not
There is more than enough clearance for the LE5 to fit without hacking the Firewall, which a tough job. A V6, aluminum motor, might just fit too, but I will not know until, again, the old FWD engine and trans is gutted..
Some progress photos
THe first photo is the old engine with wiring, air cleaner etc removed. But the second is looking over the exhaust manifold, lots of space back there
Next is the rear view, gutted interior and the last is the spot where the tuneel section just a few inches behind the firewall will need to be enlarged, forward of my hand.
10-27-2015, 09:17 PM
#25
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-30-2015
Location: Portland Oegon
Posts: 58
FRAME & SUSPENSION..
I' think that I wrote earlier that I've been pondering this Running Gear swap for a few ears now. It started soon after the LS1 T-56 s speed and Dutchman's 9 inch in my '56 Chevy 210 Coupe. But let me tell you that even though the '56 LS build was a involved build.. nothing like a HHR LS1 Swap. If you haven't yet,,, read all of Lasiter's Build.
After a few design discussions it looks like we will be designing two frames. The simplest explanation I think, is that one frame would be a full length frame and the second ends at the Stock HHR "K" Member, but attaches to this member.
The LS T-56 build we're planning would utilize the full frame design and the DODC LE5 could use either. It depends on if I end up keeping the HHR Front Suspension or not. The Hiedt's Super Ride would be my first choice. And then the discussion got into front bracing, time will tell. At this time We have no idea of the sheet metal work required on the HHR body for an after market front IRS such a Heidt's
Right now I hope to get the $$ amount for the HHR body CAD files. Without them It's difficult to state where the design will go. But, Our biggest Goal is a "bolt on frame" for the shorter frame with only minimal sheet metal mod' and some more "challenging" mods for a V6 or V8 swap.. Both require the Fuel Tank to be moved and wiring extended
The Rear suspension is not too difficult for the frame builder to add the mounting members. Be it Camaro IRS or ??? WE already have a professional Frame builder with decades of experience involved in the frame design and fabrication However I'm going with IRS on both, I like the ride and I don't wish to contend with major tunnel mod's on the stock HHR Tunnel. But adding the mounting members etc for say a 9 inch is being considered.
The first photo is the LS1 engine and second the T-56 with the tunnel removed. There large, But such fun. It will take a lot of fabrication to stuff a LS & trans in a HHR, Lasiter has done a terrific job !!
Next Gen-5 Camaro IRS. I'll not be using the OEM suspension Gage. It's to big, bulky and very heavy These are great IRS set-ups. Hard to see all of the suspension components. But, We''l post them later.
Next is the spindle on a Solstice. Heir pretty tough, and a complete IRS is surprisingly cheap..
Now the Solstice DOHC and Trany photos. The trany is too wide just in front of the shift arm. Which measures to pock ot about where the existing Auto Shifter lives. What I love about this engine & trans is it produces an easy 300 HP and will fit in the HHR and I can utilize all of the wiring and engine ECU, with minor mod's I do not want to rewire my "DD"
The last photo shows approx where the Solstice 5 speed shift handle pops out.
I' think that I wrote earlier that I've been pondering this Running Gear swap for a few ears now. It started soon after the LS1 T-56 s speed and Dutchman's 9 inch in my '56 Chevy 210 Coupe. But let me tell you that even though the '56 LS build was a involved build.. nothing like a HHR LS1 Swap. If you haven't yet,,, read all of Lasiter's Build.
After a few design discussions it looks like we will be designing two frames. The simplest explanation I think, is that one frame would be a full length frame and the second ends at the Stock HHR "K" Member, but attaches to this member.
The LS T-56 build we're planning would utilize the full frame design and the DODC LE5 could use either. It depends on if I end up keeping the HHR Front Suspension or not. The Hiedt's Super Ride would be my first choice. And then the discussion got into front bracing, time will tell. At this time We have no idea of the sheet metal work required on the HHR body for an after market front IRS such a Heidt's
Right now I hope to get the $$ amount for the HHR body CAD files. Without them It's difficult to state where the design will go. But, Our biggest Goal is a "bolt on frame" for the shorter frame with only minimal sheet metal mod' and some more "challenging" mods for a V6 or V8 swap.. Both require the Fuel Tank to be moved and wiring extended
The Rear suspension is not too difficult for the frame builder to add the mounting members. Be it Camaro IRS or ??? WE already have a professional Frame builder with decades of experience involved in the frame design and fabrication However I'm going with IRS on both, I like the ride and I don't wish to contend with major tunnel mod's on the stock HHR Tunnel. But adding the mounting members etc for say a 9 inch is being considered.
The first photo is the LS1 engine and second the T-56 with the tunnel removed. There large, But such fun. It will take a lot of fabrication to stuff a LS & trans in a HHR, Lasiter has done a terrific job !!
Next Gen-5 Camaro IRS. I'll not be using the OEM suspension Gage. It's to big, bulky and very heavy These are great IRS set-ups. Hard to see all of the suspension components. But, We''l post them later.
Next is the spindle on a Solstice. Heir pretty tough, and a complete IRS is surprisingly cheap..
Now the Solstice DOHC and Trany photos. The trany is too wide just in front of the shift arm. Which measures to pock ot about where the existing Auto Shifter lives. What I love about this engine & trans is it produces an easy 300 HP and will fit in the HHR and I can utilize all of the wiring and engine ECU, with minor mod's I do not want to rewire my "DD"
The last photo shows approx where the Solstice 5 speed shift handle pops out.
05-03-2016, 12:30 PM
#26
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-30-2015
Location: Portland Oegon
Posts: 58
Latest Update and some Photos
We scrapped the Camaro IRS, too wide, too heavy etc I've got several near complete C4 Corvette front and rear suspension parts that I've gathered over the years. The C4 front and rear Suspensions are a great design, with a lot of options. And it's the correct width. I'd rather Not narrow a front or rear IRS, changes the numbers to much. And I've got all of the dimensions for the C4 sus and I still have my C4 Convertible for a physical reference, which is always very handy.
We cut and hacked the rear pan over the axle area, many times and finally We're satisfied with the fitment We even slip a pair of C5 alloy wheels un with 285x40x18 inch tires. Very minimal mods, and the width is what we want. Some Bodt mods for the C4 Dog Bone Link Mounting, but that's expected
We must have pulled the engine and trans in & out a hundred times. We just lifted them up, pulled them out a ways and made small cuts. I'm very happy that we stopped and install the electric winch, so much faster and easier.. In the end we eventually got them set in place. There will be a little more cutting on the tunnel and some shaping. But we did manage to Not cut any of the structural uni-body metal out.
We did set the engine and trans in over a slightly modified HHR front sub frame. The DOHC Ecotec is a tall motor, but the important part is that the Rack will clear with some mods , oil pan & rack relocate, But most import we think at this time it's the lining up with the floor pan tunnell.
We set up a C4 front suspension, lots of horsing around, clamps and blocks. But The C4 front sus will work out for us. The rack will need to be lowered and bushing spacers under the tie rods to cure any Bump Steer, and the oil Pan Cut. I had to do this exact rack relocate and oil cut on my '56 Chevy when we installed the LS1 and 6 speed years ago. Always in the way... After We finish my '56 I said "My last serious build". That didn't happen
The Great thing is that there will no mods ot the original C4 (gen S2 '88 and up) dimensions, all the control arm, rack, hubs brakes,,, except the rack will lowered. So,, Going with C4 suspension, front and rear
Every Build We get into for ourselves We always tell ourselves that there will be no frame or oil mods. Of course that never happens. This one will get a complete frame, which might just be easier..
SO at this point is C4 Corvette suspension front and rear, with no sus component mods. The C5 wheels and tires fit, I'll probably reduce the F & R tire width a bit. And the C4 and C5 corvette have so many wheels choices and many offsets.
There is a great deal of room in the engine bay, see photo. So plenty of room for the Power steering pump, Turbo, inter-cooler tubing, etc etc..... We will gut the 2009 panel of wiring and start over. I'll not to installing the BCM (body control module) GPS, Fuse Box, etc.. too much electronics in these newer cars.. I'm not sure if we"ll retain the HHR heater / AC box and the Radio at this point.
The Mule Car is now outside. I have to take about three weeks and dedicate this time to finish a lot of concrete around my new house, final inspection soon -- I'll be so Happy.
We will be cutting the top of the Mule HHR and test out some the feasibility of a 2 inch, or so , Chop. After we done with the exam, store the Rood and rear door parts for possibly later. Then we will be cutting the excess metal from the Mule, A pillars, B pillars etc, Flip the body over, and back in the shop. Working Right side up and not crawling under the Mule will be easier on our backs.
We will be designing and Fabricating a complete frame. The next plan is to Fab a Rear Sub Frame test section and get the C4 IRS bolted up. This will be a Test Fab with small welds. The Rear Diffy alignment to the tunnell is the first step for us in the frame design. I'm sure my life long friend Steve, will Nag me until I purchase the HHR CAD Body Files, will made everything faster and more accurate. Steve is a ME (Mechanical Engineer) with decades of fabrication experience and builds....
The next step, after a breather, will be the front sub test frame. The body mounts are fixed, so the C4 front suspension has to be set to body alignment and ride height. Once we have this front test sub frame we are going to look into setting the engine and trans back towards to rear. This will be prior to setting up the rack. We have plenty of room to move the motor & trans to the rear, But How to change to spark plugs.
We want the engine and trans as low as possible and the pair rearwards more than in the below photo as the HHR's are a little front heavy.Whew, then at some point we'll Settle on the engine and trans location and connect the front and rear sub frames. We plan to make these a "Straight" as possible, So there will be a few cuts in the floors boards. But the body will be sitting on a frame.... OH, we did do some preliminary engine and trans set backs. Moving them back will require firewall cuts, not a big issue, but it completely eliminates the use of the HHR factory Heat / AC box..
We will design the frame and section of on out CAD software, new news,,. This makes the Cuts so much easier. YES, for those how have asked, We are considering selling wither a complete frame or kit. No idea as to when. As to installing a V6 or V8, I think that the frame isn't the issue, it's how much time and work a builder wishes to put into a build such as this one. V engines as shorter, but wider - But I've seen V8 in VWs etc,,, just take a Bigger Shoe Horn.. It's been done and Cliff Lasater is doing a great Job on his V8 RWD conversion....
Enjoy the photos. We are having fun on this project. We are taking a break, but I'll be happy to answer questions... Oh, please excuse my grammar - I'm an Engineer not an English Teacher....
Michael...
.
We scrapped the Camaro IRS, too wide, too heavy etc I've got several near complete C4 Corvette front and rear suspension parts that I've gathered over the years. The C4 front and rear Suspensions are a great design, with a lot of options. And it's the correct width. I'd rather Not narrow a front or rear IRS, changes the numbers to much. And I've got all of the dimensions for the C4 sus and I still have my C4 Convertible for a physical reference, which is always very handy.
We cut and hacked the rear pan over the axle area, many times and finally We're satisfied with the fitment We even slip a pair of C5 alloy wheels un with 285x40x18 inch tires. Very minimal mods, and the width is what we want. Some Bodt mods for the C4 Dog Bone Link Mounting, but that's expected
We must have pulled the engine and trans in & out a hundred times. We just lifted them up, pulled them out a ways and made small cuts. I'm very happy that we stopped and install the electric winch, so much faster and easier.. In the end we eventually got them set in place. There will be a little more cutting on the tunnel and some shaping. But we did manage to Not cut any of the structural uni-body metal out.
We did set the engine and trans in over a slightly modified HHR front sub frame. The DOHC Ecotec is a tall motor, but the important part is that the Rack will clear with some mods , oil pan & rack relocate, But most import we think at this time it's the lining up with the floor pan tunnell.
We set up a C4 front suspension, lots of horsing around, clamps and blocks. But The C4 front sus will work out for us. The rack will need to be lowered and bushing spacers under the tie rods to cure any Bump Steer, and the oil Pan Cut. I had to do this exact rack relocate and oil cut on my '56 Chevy when we installed the LS1 and 6 speed years ago. Always in the way... After We finish my '56 I said "My last serious build". That didn't happen
The Great thing is that there will no mods ot the original C4 (gen S2 '88 and up) dimensions, all the control arm, rack, hubs brakes,,, except the rack will lowered. So,, Going with C4 suspension, front and rear
Every Build We get into for ourselves We always tell ourselves that there will be no frame or oil mods. Of course that never happens. This one will get a complete frame, which might just be easier..
SO at this point is C4 Corvette suspension front and rear, with no sus component mods. The C5 wheels and tires fit, I'll probably reduce the F & R tire width a bit. And the C4 and C5 corvette have so many wheels choices and many offsets.
There is a great deal of room in the engine bay, see photo. So plenty of room for the Power steering pump, Turbo, inter-cooler tubing, etc etc..... We will gut the 2009 panel of wiring and start over. I'll not to installing the BCM (body control module) GPS, Fuse Box, etc.. too much electronics in these newer cars.. I'm not sure if we"ll retain the HHR heater / AC box and the Radio at this point.
The Mule Car is now outside. I have to take about three weeks and dedicate this time to finish a lot of concrete around my new house, final inspection soon -- I'll be so Happy.
We will be cutting the top of the Mule HHR and test out some the feasibility of a 2 inch, or so , Chop. After we done with the exam, store the Rood and rear door parts for possibly later. Then we will be cutting the excess metal from the Mule, A pillars, B pillars etc, Flip the body over, and back in the shop. Working Right side up and not crawling under the Mule will be easier on our backs.
We will be designing and Fabricating a complete frame. The next plan is to Fab a Rear Sub Frame test section and get the C4 IRS bolted up. This will be a Test Fab with small welds. The Rear Diffy alignment to the tunnell is the first step for us in the frame design. I'm sure my life long friend Steve, will Nag me until I purchase the HHR CAD Body Files, will made everything faster and more accurate. Steve is a ME (Mechanical Engineer) with decades of fabrication experience and builds....
The next step, after a breather, will be the front sub test frame. The body mounts are fixed, so the C4 front suspension has to be set to body alignment and ride height. Once we have this front test sub frame we are going to look into setting the engine and trans back towards to rear. This will be prior to setting up the rack. We have plenty of room to move the motor & trans to the rear, But How to change to spark plugs.
We want the engine and trans as low as possible and the pair rearwards more than in the below photo as the HHR's are a little front heavy.Whew, then at some point we'll Settle on the engine and trans location and connect the front and rear sub frames. We plan to make these a "Straight" as possible, So there will be a few cuts in the floors boards. But the body will be sitting on a frame.... OH, we did do some preliminary engine and trans set backs. Moving them back will require firewall cuts, not a big issue, but it completely eliminates the use of the HHR factory Heat / AC box..
We will design the frame and section of on out CAD software, new news,,. This makes the Cuts so much easier. YES, for those how have asked, We are considering selling wither a complete frame or kit. No idea as to when. As to installing a V6 or V8, I think that the frame isn't the issue, it's how much time and work a builder wishes to put into a build such as this one. V engines as shorter, but wider - But I've seen V8 in VWs etc,,, just take a Bigger Shoe Horn.. It's been done and Cliff Lasater is doing a great Job on his V8 RWD conversion....
Enjoy the photos. We are having fun on this project. We are taking a break, but I'll be happy to answer questions... Oh, please excuse my grammar - I'm an Engineer not an English Teacher....
Michael...
.
05-03-2016, 02:38 PM
#28
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-30-2015
Location: Portland Oegon
Posts: 58
oldblue,
THANK YOU !!
It's definitely a serious project, but I'ts great fun and as metal cars go my Build HHR Panel has Zero Rust.. Guess I spoiled having owned Corvettes since my youth. But I still have my old metal '56 210 2 door, near to rust free when I got her years ago - a former SoCal race car that was gutted...
This project will be a Slow Process, as we are in no hurry and retain the ""Having Fun concept""... I had this illusion that we could complete this RWD conversion with only Sub Frames front and rear. It is possible, but as we got deep into this,,, We soon realized and the final solution is a complete frame, and that comes with a lot of advantages...
and thanks for the assist of my other posts.
Michael...
THANK YOU !!
It's definitely a serious project, but I'ts great fun and as metal cars go my Build HHR Panel has Zero Rust.. Guess I spoiled having owned Corvettes since my youth. But I still have my old metal '56 210 2 door, near to rust free when I got her years ago - a former SoCal race car that was gutted...
This project will be a Slow Process, as we are in no hurry and retain the ""Having Fun concept""... I had this illusion that we could complete this RWD conversion with only Sub Frames front and rear. It is possible, but as we got deep into this,,, We soon realized and the final solution is a complete frame, and that comes with a lot of advantages...
and thanks for the assist of my other posts.
Michael...
05-03-2016, 02:53 PM
#29
Administrator
Join Date: 10-13-2011
Location: Welland,Ont Canada
Posts: 36,514
So, time to call Art Morrison?? Or Fatman's?
Your welcome, I'm getting to old and definitely to poor to swing a project like this.
My last ground up build was a Dino 246 replica.
With a bored and stroked 2.8 l Ford V6, a Porche 912 5 speed transaxle and a lowly Ford Pinto front windshield!
I've done some other builds since then , but mostly abandoned projects my friends gave up on, I'm still crazy after all these years!!
Your welcome, I'm getting to old and definitely to poor to swing a project like this.
My last ground up build was a Dino 246 replica.
With a bored and stroked 2.8 l Ford V6, a Porche 912 5 speed transaxle and a lowly Ford Pinto front windshield!
I've done some other builds since then , but mostly abandoned projects my friends gave up on, I'm still crazy after all these years!!
05-03-2016, 04:44 PM
#30
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-30-2015
Location: Portland Oegon
Posts: 58
oldblue,
Ooo,, sounds like a fun build.
Na, we'll fab the proto frame here at my place in the country. Then when we're ready to build the Finish frame We will tack it all up in Place and cross check all the dimensions etc. I and my closet friends, We do ALL of our own work, everything including paint too. I'm to "Thrifty" to let someone elase do any of my work. For Me, what's the point.
Speaking of Paint and large $$$ outlays of a Street Rod, this Little HHR Panel W'ill be in Primer for a long long time...
We've got a friend that's retired from the daily job, but still has a large shop at his home. He was a full time steel fabricator and He has a very nice frame jib. We have use his frame jig a few years ago, But His TIG welding is so much better than mine. It's worth a little Cash to get professional TIG welding, and so very important.
Thanks.....
Ooo,, sounds like a fun build.
Na, we'll fab the proto frame here at my place in the country. Then when we're ready to build the Finish frame We will tack it all up in Place and cross check all the dimensions etc. I and my closet friends, We do ALL of our own work, everything including paint too. I'm to "Thrifty" to let someone elase do any of my work. For Me, what's the point.
Speaking of Paint and large $$$ outlays of a Street Rod, this Little HHR Panel W'ill be in Primer for a long long time...
We've got a friend that's retired from the daily job, but still has a large shop at his home. He was a full time steel fabricator and He has a very nice frame jib. We have use his frame jig a few years ago, But His TIG welding is so much better than mine. It's worth a little Cash to get professional TIG welding, and so very important.
Thanks.....