Lightened/Underdrive Pulley Sets for the HHR SS
09-04-2008, 03:45 PM
#1
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Join Date: 08-28-2008
Location: Houston, Texas
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Lightened/Underdrive Pulley Sets for the HHR SS
While I am new to this website, I have been in the tuner scene here in Houston for quite a while now, and I've had repeated interactions with a local company called NonStop Tuning. (NST) They build quality parts, and have an excellent reputation in the import circles. Today, I had a great conversation with the President of the company about the possibility of developing a pulley set for the LNF engine, and he is very interested, providing there is enough interest in such a product. We have even already discussed using my HHR for dyno and fitment testing.
The purpose of this thread is to gauge interest. If NST goes forward with product development, they will become a supporting vendor at that time. I am not an employee or associate of NST, I just want to help get new parts on the market for the SS!
Now, I did read the one thread I have been able to find on LNF pulleys anywhere on this site. It was from months back and had no real conclusions on anything. The product listed was a severely overpriced crank pulley designed for the Sky/Solstice, and there was much debate as to whether it was a practical application for the engine in our SS based on the difference in the power steering setup. But with that said, that thread did raise alot of questions, so I will try to answer alot of them before they are asked here.
Here are some thoughts about pulley theory from NST:
"Think of it this way, underdrive means to slow down. Underdrive crank pulleys found at NonStopTuning are designed to slow down engine accessories and reduce parasitic loss.
Crank pulleys, attached to the outside of the crankshaft, are the source of power for a car's accessories. The alternator, power steering, water pump, and air conditioner are all belt driven units, attached to the crank pulley, that use horsepower from an engine to provide their own services. This draw of power by these accessories is called parasitic loss. NST Underdrive Crank Pulleys increase an engine's horsepower by reducing the power required to drive these external accessories. By replacing factory pulleys with CAREFULLY RESIZED units, some of the accessories are slowed enough so that their performance DOES NOT suffer, but just enough so that more horsepower is sent to the wheels and put to the ground. Where horsepower should be!
The R&D team at NST is dedicated to developing kits that provide great gains for track days and continue to deliver proper accessory output for everyday street use.
NST equipped cars do better on the track, benefit from increased accessory life on the street, and also deliver better mile-per-gallon fuel efficiency."
It's important to not that NST pulley sets often come with alternator pulleys sized to maintain their stock output while the other accessories are still underdriven. That's great for street applications and audiophiles with big power systems.
Now, with all of that said, how many of you would be interested in a QUALITY, dyno tested pulleys, hard anodized in your choice of several attractive colors? Pricing would be equivalent to their other pulley sets, probably in the range of $100-130 for a crank pulley and ~$80 per pulley if a full set was developed for all of the accessories.
Here is a sample pic of a set of pulleys (different application) for reference:
What do you think?
The purpose of this thread is to gauge interest. If NST goes forward with product development, they will become a supporting vendor at that time. I am not an employee or associate of NST, I just want to help get new parts on the market for the SS!
Now, I did read the one thread I have been able to find on LNF pulleys anywhere on this site. It was from months back and had no real conclusions on anything. The product listed was a severely overpriced crank pulley designed for the Sky/Solstice, and there was much debate as to whether it was a practical application for the engine in our SS based on the difference in the power steering setup. But with that said, that thread did raise alot of questions, so I will try to answer alot of them before they are asked here.
Here are some thoughts about pulley theory from NST:
"Think of it this way, underdrive means to slow down. Underdrive crank pulleys found at NonStopTuning are designed to slow down engine accessories and reduce parasitic loss.
Crank pulleys, attached to the outside of the crankshaft, are the source of power for a car's accessories. The alternator, power steering, water pump, and air conditioner are all belt driven units, attached to the crank pulley, that use horsepower from an engine to provide their own services. This draw of power by these accessories is called parasitic loss. NST Underdrive Crank Pulleys increase an engine's horsepower by reducing the power required to drive these external accessories. By replacing factory pulleys with CAREFULLY RESIZED units, some of the accessories are slowed enough so that their performance DOES NOT suffer, but just enough so that more horsepower is sent to the wheels and put to the ground. Where horsepower should be!
The R&D team at NST is dedicated to developing kits that provide great gains for track days and continue to deliver proper accessory output for everyday street use.
NST equipped cars do better on the track, benefit from increased accessory life on the street, and also deliver better mile-per-gallon fuel efficiency."
It's important to not that NST pulley sets often come with alternator pulleys sized to maintain their stock output while the other accessories are still underdriven. That's great for street applications and audiophiles with big power systems.
Now, with all of that said, how many of you would be interested in a QUALITY, dyno tested pulleys, hard anodized in your choice of several attractive colors? Pricing would be equivalent to their other pulley sets, probably in the range of $100-130 for a crank pulley and ~$80 per pulley if a full set was developed for all of the accessories.
Here is a sample pic of a set of pulleys (different application) for reference:
What do you think?
Last edited by AaronSS; 09-04-2008 at 09:15 PM.
09-04-2008, 03:45 PM
#2
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Thread Starter
Join Date: 08-28-2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 542
The issue of harmonic balancing was raised in the other thread, so I'm sure it will be raised in this thread at some point. The definitive answer to that question:
Q. Will NST Pulleys lead to premature engine failure?
"I cover this topic at least several times a month but I don't mind, I understand that your cars are a very large investment for all of you and I prefer that you be intelligent and informed about all your modifications. So here we go again... Please take a few minutes to read everything I have posted here, as I worked hard on trying to give you a good explanation on the topic...
In the past many engines were externally balanced. There was an external balancer attached to the outside of the engine, on the crank snout, used to balance the engine externally. The crank pulley in such engines would then be attached to this balancer. Removal of this balancer is a bad idea. These balancers were most often used on large (6 to 8) V shaped engines of the domestic muscle car era.
Take a look at any modern (1980s and beyond) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or other japanese inline 4 and you will find no such balancer. These engines are all internally balanced, and this process has improved even further since the late 1990s. So the topic of a BALANCER does not apply here.
What you will find on many modern engines is a harmonic damper. This is a small rubber band, litterally less than 2mm, less than 1/8th of an inch, thick that is built into the crank pulley. OEM crank pulleys are often called DAMPERS. Try placing an order for a crank pulley at your dealer and your invoice will read damper. This rubber is used to absorb something called NVH, noise/vibration/harshness. Suffice it to say, this rubber is actually not very good at performing its intended purpose after as little as a few thousand miles. What happens to rubber after a couple years of humidity, weather, snow, rain, etc? It often becomes brittle, hard, and crunchy. Can something with these properties actually absorb vibrations very well?
Many many NST customers, including people on your own forums, have reported smoother running engines with NST pulleys. Especially at idle. How is this possible if the rubber is such a vital and super important piece??? Perhaps the rubber is not as important as it is cracked up to be???
Furthermore....
On the topic of the rubber damper, engine vibrations, or possible threats resulting from elimination of this rubber piece...
On a relatively understressed near stock motor with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what most of the people on this forum probably run, a solid pulley will not have any life threatening consiquences. The factory pulley with a 2mm (less than a 1/8th inch) damper is primarily there for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid pulley may lead to minor addtional NVH but will not harm the engine. In fact, most people claim their engines seem to run smoother with NST pulleys.
The engineering reasons are that most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area above 10,000 rpm. Even the stock damper is not tuned for attinuation at this sort of rpm so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.
Now weak engines that are pushing the limit with LOTS of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benefit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this, and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard. How many 2.0 Liter, 500HP, 12,000RPM motors do we have on these forums?
As far as I can tell, our engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is well built for our intended use. It has an internaly balanced crankshaft which is less like to break due to torsional vibration.
There are a lot of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan guys who use underdrive crank pulleys in road racing series like NASA or SCCA. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting roughly 30 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivlent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes. These guys would not use NST pulleys if they were not reliable.
NST sponsors the first ever wheel to wheel Scion tC NASA Road Race car. The same car is also very competitive in the Grand Am series and has factory backing from Toyota, Scion, and TRD. This car has been using pulleys from NST with great results since day one.
NST has sponsored several drift cars participating in the professional US drift series, Fromula Drift. Several of our cars have also competed in the NOPI Drift series. To make things better, NST products are also used in autocross, time attack, and drag cars. These cars have been using NST pulleys with no issues of any kind for the past few seasons.
We could go on and on...
Is a solid crank pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. As I said... small, super high reving engines, when modified way past the simple bolt on stages may have problems. These engines reach critcal harmonics, past the 10,000 rpm range, an rpm only reached by certain RACE engines.
A mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time (90% of its life) with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock balancer/damper is probably not adequate either.
Some of the older american V8 engines are externaly balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for these applications, or damage to the engine could result. You will not find solid NST pulleys on our website for such engines.
Our engines and most around here do not fall into the above catagories. Rest assured that your engines will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts.
I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise has little personal, practical, real world experience with the subject; as it applies in your case.
Again, I understand that your cars are a very large investment and that you depend on them as your daily means of transportation, so I do not take your questions personally. But please remember... No NST product is designed to cause you any harm or grief. We are not in business to sell junk."
Q. Will NST Pulleys lead to premature engine failure?
"I cover this topic at least several times a month but I don't mind, I understand that your cars are a very large investment for all of you and I prefer that you be intelligent and informed about all your modifications. So here we go again... Please take a few minutes to read everything I have posted here, as I worked hard on trying to give you a good explanation on the topic...
In the past many engines were externally balanced. There was an external balancer attached to the outside of the engine, on the crank snout, used to balance the engine externally. The crank pulley in such engines would then be attached to this balancer. Removal of this balancer is a bad idea. These balancers were most often used on large (6 to 8) V shaped engines of the domestic muscle car era.
Take a look at any modern (1980s and beyond) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or other japanese inline 4 and you will find no such balancer. These engines are all internally balanced, and this process has improved even further since the late 1990s. So the topic of a BALANCER does not apply here.
What you will find on many modern engines is a harmonic damper. This is a small rubber band, litterally less than 2mm, less than 1/8th of an inch, thick that is built into the crank pulley. OEM crank pulleys are often called DAMPERS. Try placing an order for a crank pulley at your dealer and your invoice will read damper. This rubber is used to absorb something called NVH, noise/vibration/harshness. Suffice it to say, this rubber is actually not very good at performing its intended purpose after as little as a few thousand miles. What happens to rubber after a couple years of humidity, weather, snow, rain, etc? It often becomes brittle, hard, and crunchy. Can something with these properties actually absorb vibrations very well?
Many many NST customers, including people on your own forums, have reported smoother running engines with NST pulleys. Especially at idle. How is this possible if the rubber is such a vital and super important piece??? Perhaps the rubber is not as important as it is cracked up to be???
Furthermore....
On the topic of the rubber damper, engine vibrations, or possible threats resulting from elimination of this rubber piece...
On a relatively understressed near stock motor with bolt ons or low amounts of boost like what most of the people on this forum probably run, a solid pulley will not have any life threatening consiquences. The factory pulley with a 2mm (less than a 1/8th inch) damper is primarily there for wide band NVH (noise vibration harshness) supression from the engine and driveline. Removing the damper and replacing it with a solid pulley may lead to minor addtional NVH but will not harm the engine. In fact, most people claim their engines seem to run smoother with NST pulleys.
The engineering reasons are that most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area above 10,000 rpm. Even the stock damper is not tuned for attinuation at this sort of rpm so the argument is somewhat of a moot point.
Now weak engines that are pushing the limit with LOTS of revs, wimpy cranks, super long strokes, lots of boost and dwelling in the upper rpm ranges for long periods of time can benefit from a damper designed to deal with this sort of operation but our engine is not like this, and probably very few people with this motor on this forum push the envelope that hard. How many 2.0 Liter, 500HP, 12,000RPM motors do we have on these forums?
As far as I can tell, our engine has a strong and stiff bottom end that is well built for our intended use. It has an internaly balanced crankshaft which is less like to break due to torsional vibration.
There are a lot of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan guys who use underdrive crank pulleys in road racing series like NASA or SCCA. Road racing is much more punishing on an engine than other motorsports. The engine is subjected to run times lasting roughly 30 minutes with the engine always in the upper ranges of its rpm limit. One race weekend is the equivlent of hundreds of 1/4 mile passes. These guys would not use NST pulleys if they were not reliable.
NST sponsors the first ever wheel to wheel Scion tC NASA Road Race car. The same car is also very competitive in the Grand Am series and has factory backing from Toyota, Scion, and TRD. This car has been using pulleys from NST with great results since day one.
NST has sponsored several drift cars participating in the professional US drift series, Fromula Drift. Several of our cars have also competed in the NOPI Drift series. To make things better, NST products are also used in autocross, time attack, and drag cars. These cars have been using NST pulleys with no issues of any kind for the past few seasons.
We could go on and on...
Is a solid crank pulley harmless to all engines? No it is not. As I said... small, super high reving engines, when modified way past the simple bolt on stages may have problems. These engines reach critcal harmonics, past the 10,000 rpm range, an rpm only reached by certain RACE engines.
A mildly modded inline six will most likely be fine but one subjected to high rpm for long periods of time (90% of its life) with lots of boost will probably suffer. In this case , the stock balancer/damper is probably not adequate either.
Some of the older american V8 engines are externaly balanced and it is critical not to use a solid hub pulley not designed for these applications, or damage to the engine could result. You will not find solid NST pulleys on our website for such engines.
Our engines and most around here do not fall into the above catagories. Rest assured that your engines will not blow up and die or have a reduced life in street and even racing use with these parts.
I would bet that every "expert" that tells you otherwise has little personal, practical, real world experience with the subject; as it applies in your case.
Again, I understand that your cars are a very large investment and that you depend on them as your daily means of transportation, so I do not take your questions personally. But please remember... No NST product is designed to cause you any harm or grief. We are not in business to sell junk."
09-04-2008, 04:30 PM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: 10-02-2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,245
First, on the HHRs, the power steering is electronic, not an hydraulic unit as in the past. The water pump is driven off the crank internally by chain.
When it come to these "snake oil" lighter or underdriven pulleys...
Any change in the rotational mass enertia related to the pulleys is basically inconsequential when you take into accout the rotational mass of the entire engine / drivetrain.
Some time back I saw an analysis done by a group of GM engineers that ran a SCCA class that had very strict limitations for engine modifications. One that was allowed had to do with pulleys. Their test showed that it was inconsequential and dropped it.
Bottom line: Beware of the snake oil salesmen and good luck!!
When it come to these "snake oil" lighter or underdriven pulleys...
Any change in the rotational mass enertia related to the pulleys is basically inconsequential when you take into accout the rotational mass of the entire engine / drivetrain.
Some time back I saw an analysis done by a group of GM engineers that ran a SCCA class that had very strict limitations for engine modifications. One that was allowed had to do with pulleys. Their test showed that it was inconsequential and dropped it.
Bottom line: Beware of the snake oil salesmen and good luck!!
09-04-2008, 08:03 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Join Date: 08-28-2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 542
First, on the HHRs, the power steering is electronic, not an hydraulic unit as in the past. The water pump is driven off the crank internally by chain.
When it come to these "snake oil" lighter or underdriven pulleys...
Any change in the rotational mass enertia related to the pulleys is basically inconsequential when you take into accout the rotational mass of the entire engine / drivetrain.
Some time back I saw an analysis done by a group of GM engineers that ran a SCCA class that had very strict limitations for engine modifications. One that was allowed had to do with pulleys. Their test showed that it was inconsequential and dropped it.
Bottom line: Beware of the snake oil salesmen and good luck!!
When it come to these "snake oil" lighter or underdriven pulleys...
Any change in the rotational mass enertia related to the pulleys is basically inconsequential when you take into accout the rotational mass of the entire engine / drivetrain.
Some time back I saw an analysis done by a group of GM engineers that ran a SCCA class that had very strict limitations for engine modifications. One that was allowed had to do with pulleys. Their test showed that it was inconsequential and dropped it.
Bottom line: Beware of the snake oil salesmen and good luck!!
I'm not a Honda fan by any means, but here is your snake oil:
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpage...ulley_set.html
More on a different application:
http://tsx.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=670803
Still another, this time from a different company:
http://www.importtuner.com/powerpage..._se/index.html
09-04-2008, 08:17 PM
#5
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Join Date: 04-19-2008
Location: Ontario Cdn
Posts: 563
09-04-2008, 08:26 PM
#7
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Join Date: 08-28-2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 542
Exactly.
thanks for clearing that up for me, sorry mised those little
09-04-2008, 08:35 PM
#9
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Join Date: 08-28-2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 542
I went back and edited, adding more before and after dyno tests with underdrive/lightened pulleys using products from different companies and dyno numbers supplied by both the vendor and third party testing. I'm not asking anyone to commit to buy the product now. I'm asking if you would buy the part if it is dyno proven to show the expected gains at a reasonable price. I hope that's a little more convincing to the skeptics.
09-04-2008, 08:45 PM
#10
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Join Date: 01-04-2008
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Posts: 2,366
Not to throw water on all this:
What about the coveted 100k powertrain warranty? I will more than likely trade my 08 2LT in for an SS. For many reasons that I wont boar you with, one of which is having a turbo'd vehicle with such a killer warranty. Now granted, you could blow up the motor and spend the time and effort to change everything back to stock I suppose. Same thing goes with tuning. I have had 3 other cars that were tremendously benefited from ECM tuning. When it came time for a trip to the dealer, I flashed back to stock. I understand GM can "see" several tunes so it would be hard to fool them.
Just my 2 cents
What about the coveted 100k powertrain warranty? I will more than likely trade my 08 2LT in for an SS. For many reasons that I wont boar you with, one of which is having a turbo'd vehicle with such a killer warranty. Now granted, you could blow up the motor and spend the time and effort to change everything back to stock I suppose. Same thing goes with tuning. I have had 3 other cars that were tremendously benefited from ECM tuning. When it came time for a trip to the dealer, I flashed back to stock. I understand GM can "see" several tunes so it would be hard to fool them.
Just my 2 cents