Diesel power
05-17-2007, 07:44 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: 01-13-2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1,059
trying to compare the diesels in the big trucks that GM/ford/dodge uses VS a diesel in something like the HHR is ludicrous. They are 2 completely different monsters. The diesels in the trucks are MADE for major torque and for TOWING!!! A diesel in the HHR would be more for fuel economy. This paltry 35+ is NOTHING!!! The VW TDI cars are getting 45-60 MPG highway and CITY!!!
A smaller displacement diesel like a 2.2 for the HHR would (with a turbo) make something like 150-160 horses. BUT would REDLINE at around 3500 rpms!! This means HORSEPOWER is USELESS!!!! ANYTHING BELOW 3500 RPMS IS SOLID TORQUE!!! The same 2.2 diesel making 150 horses would make in the neighborhood of 220-240 lbs torque. It would be LOADS faster than the standard LT's and be keeping with the 2LT's!!! BUT would be netting 45-50 city mpg and 50+ highway mpg. Check out the diesel Golfs and Jetta's! These smaller engined diesel cars are reliable as can be as well. Just have to make sure you do the same thing you would do with ANY car. Oil changes and such! AND NEVER PUT PETROL IN A DIESEL! LOL! Plus the newer diesel cars DO NOT smoke like the others. Not until you start making REALLY good power from them! Which you can do and mor reliably too!
CH== if you paid 3.09 and got 30 mpg on a 14 gallon tank.. or paid 3.09 and got 45-50 mpg on a 14 gallon tank.. thats 420 miles a tank in a petrol car and 630-700 miles in an equally equipped diesel car. kinda makes sense to get a diesel.
A smaller displacement diesel like a 2.2 for the HHR would (with a turbo) make something like 150-160 horses. BUT would REDLINE at around 3500 rpms!! This means HORSEPOWER is USELESS!!!! ANYTHING BELOW 3500 RPMS IS SOLID TORQUE!!! The same 2.2 diesel making 150 horses would make in the neighborhood of 220-240 lbs torque. It would be LOADS faster than the standard LT's and be keeping with the 2LT's!!! BUT would be netting 45-50 city mpg and 50+ highway mpg. Check out the diesel Golfs and Jetta's! These smaller engined diesel cars are reliable as can be as well. Just have to make sure you do the same thing you would do with ANY car. Oil changes and such! AND NEVER PUT PETROL IN A DIESEL! LOL! Plus the newer diesel cars DO NOT smoke like the others. Not until you start making REALLY good power from them! Which you can do and mor reliably too!
CH== if you paid 3.09 and got 30 mpg on a 14 gallon tank.. or paid 3.09 and got 45-50 mpg on a 14 gallon tank.. thats 420 miles a tank in a petrol car and 630-700 miles in an equally equipped diesel car. kinda makes sense to get a diesel.
05-17-2007, 07:58 PM
#22
Banned
Join Date: 10-14-2005
Location: Rochester,N.Y.
Posts: 9,121
05-18-2007, 08:19 AM
#24
Thread Starter
Join Date: 05-16-2007
Location: uk
Posts: 4
the diesels in use now are known as commonrail which are highly efficient in comparison to the older versions of the last 2 decades.
In non Technical terms, the fuel delivery supply is very high pressure to the injectors, the injectors are all connected to the same delivery pipe hence (common rail) and the injectors are electronically actuated by the ECU.
(gone are the old mechanical fuel pump with seperate delivery pipes.)
With the high pressure fuel through the injectors the mist pattern is better so the fuel burning is at a premium over the old mechanical pumps.
The only time that my PT Cruiser Mercedes 2.2turbo diesel sounds like a diesel is at tickover, at speed it is like a quiet petrol only quicker cc for cc.
On motorway (freeway)driving I can get 45-50 mpg at at steady speed of 70mph.
My Pt gives out 150bhp which is ALL grunt (torque) at 70mph it runs at 2750 rpm and will rev effectively to 4500.
The majority of the UK/Europe are starting to buy the new diesels across all manufcturers and loving them on power and fuel economy.
Honestly the sooner you guys get the new diesels available over there , the sooner you will appreciate the difference to what you have now.
The new diesels are the the way forwards until they perfect the fuel cell and ceramic engines.
out of breath now LOL
In non Technical terms, the fuel delivery supply is very high pressure to the injectors, the injectors are all connected to the same delivery pipe hence (common rail) and the injectors are electronically actuated by the ECU.
(gone are the old mechanical fuel pump with seperate delivery pipes.)
With the high pressure fuel through the injectors the mist pattern is better so the fuel burning is at a premium over the old mechanical pumps.
The only time that my PT Cruiser Mercedes 2.2turbo diesel sounds like a diesel is at tickover, at speed it is like a quiet petrol only quicker cc for cc.
On motorway (freeway)driving I can get 45-50 mpg at at steady speed of 70mph.
My Pt gives out 150bhp which is ALL grunt (torque) at 70mph it runs at 2750 rpm and will rev effectively to 4500.
The majority of the UK/Europe are starting to buy the new diesels across all manufcturers and loving them on power and fuel economy.
Honestly the sooner you guys get the new diesels available over there , the sooner you will appreciate the difference to what you have now.
The new diesels are the the way forwards until they perfect the fuel cell and ceramic engines.
out of breath now LOL
Last edited by thegrot; 05-18-2007 at 10:40 AM.
05-18-2007, 07:53 PM
#25
Banned
Join Date: 10-24-2006
Location: The Show-Me State
Posts: 1,761
It was a converted GM 350 gas block.
It was a converted GM 350 gas block.
I would not call this the "perfect" example. This motor had loads of issues. It was junk, period.
It was a converted GM 350 gas block.
OLDSMOBILE 350 DIESEL
The GM Corporate partners shared the grief associated with its diesel debacle of the early '80s. More often considered an Oldsmobile motor, this converted gasoline engine was used throughout the GM family, and even found its way into top-of-the-line Cadillacs, with disastrous results. Failures were commonplace, often including internal engine components. At the time, mechanics and service writers referred to warrantee repair orders as "A.F.A." - or Automatic Factory Acceptance, and each respective franchise had mountains of repair orders related to the 350 cid diesel.
The GM Corporate partners shared the grief associated with its diesel debacle of the early '80s. More often considered an Oldsmobile motor, this converted gasoline engine was used throughout the GM family, and even found its way into top-of-the-line Cadillacs, with disastrous results. Failures were commonplace, often including internal engine components. At the time, mechanics and service writers referred to warrantee repair orders as "A.F.A." - or Automatic Factory Acceptance, and each respective franchise had mountains of repair orders related to the 350 cid diesel.
:
Based upon the 350 cubic-inch Olds gas engine, the diesel debuted for the 1978 model year to much fanfare. The promise of the future, it allowed big car comfort with small car fuel economy. Contrary to popular belief, the engine was completely different than its gasoline brethren, but it did look the same since it needed to go down the same assembly line and fit into vehicles that could be either gas or compression-ignition powered. The block was much sturdier and the crankshaft mains and crankpins were 0.500-inch bigger, measuring 3.00 inches instead of 2.5 inches. The crankcase was heavier and the pistons were fitted with full-floating pins. The block was so good that during that era many drag racers used it to make big power and it was known to stay together.
Then what happened to the Olds Diesel to give it such a poor reputation and the impetus for a class-action law suit? The engine suffered from poor familiarity by the consumer and Olds service personnel along with the lack of a water/fuel seperator and drain in the fuel system. This was compounded by a flood of very poor-quality diesel fuel into the market place shortly after the engine's introduction. Any moisture or dirt that would get into the high-pressure Roosa Master injection pump would cause some of the parts to hang up. This could have occurred for only a second, but that was enough time of an incorrect fuel inject cycle that would allow cylinder pressure to peak and overcome head bolt tension or break down the head gasket. The driver may have only sensed a slight shudder but the damage was already done. The injured head gasket would then let coolant seep into the cylinder and since there is little quench volume in a diesel, the uncompressability of a liquid was a theory very quickly reinforced. Something had to give and it often was a piston, connecting rod or crankshaft but it spelled disaster either way. In addition, both the dealer body and the consumer often used the incorrect oil for the engine, creating further service issues.
The Olds Diesel, when cared for properly, ran for hundreds of thousands of miles, but only in the hands of an experienced diesel operator. Other than that, it makes a great gasoline race engine block.
Then what happened to the Olds Diesel to give it such a poor reputation and the impetus for a class-action law suit? The engine suffered from poor familiarity by the consumer and Olds service personnel along with the lack of a water/fuel seperator and drain in the fuel system. This was compounded by a flood of very poor-quality diesel fuel into the market place shortly after the engine's introduction. Any moisture or dirt that would get into the high-pressure Roosa Master injection pump would cause some of the parts to hang up. This could have occurred for only a second, but that was enough time of an incorrect fuel inject cycle that would allow cylinder pressure to peak and overcome head bolt tension or break down the head gasket. The driver may have only sensed a slight shudder but the damage was already done. The injured head gasket would then let coolant seep into the cylinder and since there is little quench volume in a diesel, the uncompressability of a liquid was a theory very quickly reinforced. Something had to give and it often was a piston, connecting rod or crankshaft but it spelled disaster either way. In addition, both the dealer body and the consumer often used the incorrect oil for the engine, creating further service issues.
The Olds Diesel, when cared for properly, ran for hundreds of thousands of miles, but only in the hands of an experienced diesel operator. Other than that, it makes a great gasoline race engine block.
Last edited by hhrcrafty; 05-18-2007 at 07:54 PM. Reason: from http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0408phr_worst_automobile_engines/
05-28-2007, 07:59 PM
#27
Join Date: 05-28-2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 7
HHR and Jetta TDI
We own both a Jetta TDI and A 2007 HHR. The 2003 Jetta is an automatic and gets 44/46 mpg on the highway and in the city 30/38 mpg, depending how much stop and go driving I do. How many 3000 pound cars out there can claim that kind of mileage? It may be slow from the start, but once rolling I don't have to worry about entering the freeway or passing anyone, I just step on the fuel pedal and it goes. It drives like it has a V6 in it. As far as starting goes, we live in Minnesota, no problem with starts. It only requires the oil to be changed every 10,000 miles. All vehicles require maintenance.
The HHR with the 2.2, on the other hand, has not broke 30 mpg on the highway, mainly because we haven't had it much on the highway. City MPG is about 23/25 mpg, again depending on how much stop and go driving my wife does with it. The HHR is quicker from the start, but with all small 4 cylinders vehicles we have owned, we have to do more planning ahead if you what to try and pass anyone on the highway. Here, the Jetta TDI has the advantage. Even when gas was cheaper than diesel, I didn't have to stop and fill the Jetta up as often. Oil changes in the HHR are; I suppose whenever it lets me know, 3000-5000 miles. It has a devise that is suppose to let you know.
The owners manual for our HHR states that if you have a 2.4l, which we don't, it is recommended that you use premium. You can try regular, but if it knocks you have to go up the next grade of gasoline until it quits knocking. At $.15 to $.20 a gallon more for premium the advantage of the 2.4 is not so appealing. Why would you what to run regular gasoline in a vehicle designed to run on premium? And I bet running regular in a vehicle designed for premium hurts performance, (HP and torque)
We like our HHR, but I would like it better if it had diesel in it. You can have all the HP in the would, but if you don't have any torque behind it, the HP becomes useless.
The current diesels are going through the same trend as when the US took lead out of the gasoline in the 1970's. Here Europe passenger car diesel technology is far ahead of us.
For those still living in the 80's when GM had their diesel in cars and gave US passenger car diesel a bad reputation, I feel sorry for you.
The HHR with the 2.2, on the other hand, has not broke 30 mpg on the highway, mainly because we haven't had it much on the highway. City MPG is about 23/25 mpg, again depending on how much stop and go driving my wife does with it. The HHR is quicker from the start, but with all small 4 cylinders vehicles we have owned, we have to do more planning ahead if you what to try and pass anyone on the highway. Here, the Jetta TDI has the advantage. Even when gas was cheaper than diesel, I didn't have to stop and fill the Jetta up as often. Oil changes in the HHR are; I suppose whenever it lets me know, 3000-5000 miles. It has a devise that is suppose to let you know.
The owners manual for our HHR states that if you have a 2.4l, which we don't, it is recommended that you use premium. You can try regular, but if it knocks you have to go up the next grade of gasoline until it quits knocking. At $.15 to $.20 a gallon more for premium the advantage of the 2.4 is not so appealing. Why would you what to run regular gasoline in a vehicle designed to run on premium? And I bet running regular in a vehicle designed for premium hurts performance, (HP and torque)
We like our HHR, but I would like it better if it had diesel in it. You can have all the HP in the would, but if you don't have any torque behind it, the HP becomes useless.
The current diesels are going through the same trend as when the US took lead out of the gasoline in the 1970's. Here Europe passenger car diesel technology is far ahead of us.
For those still living in the 80's when GM had their diesel in cars and gave US passenger car diesel a bad reputation, I feel sorry for you.
to the site!!! I had no idea Jetta TDI's got that good of gas mileage. WOW
05-29-2007, 03:05 PM
#29
Join Date: 05-28-2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 7
A word of caution, when you talk diesel, be careful on the use of gas mileage. Some really take offense to the use of gas mileage when you talk diesel, they prefer, fuel mileage.
As for HP, our Jetta TDI has only 90 hp, but will out perform the HHR at highway speeds.
We bought the HHR because we can haul more with it, it gets decent gas mileage, and we liked the looks of it
. Also, we like the seat position, our bottom side is not sitting on the floor.
I think if the HHR came with a diesel, at least in the panel version, it would make a great small delivery vehicle.
As for HP, our Jetta TDI has only 90 hp, but will out perform the HHR at highway speeds.
We bought the HHR because we can haul more with it, it gets decent gas mileage, and we liked the looks of it
. Also, we like the seat position, our bottom side is not sitting on the floor.I think if the HHR came with a diesel, at least in the panel version, it would make a great small delivery vehicle.
06-01-2007, 08:46 AM
#30
Join Date: 05-28-2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 7
To learn more about the VW TDI, visit the tdiclub.com. You will learn both the advantages and disadvantages of owning the current diesel. You will also be surprised at the number of visitors to the site compared to this one.