Would you like to help GM? Here's how!
Senior Member
Joined: 09-11-2007
Posts: 1,379
From: Palm Bay, Florida
On another forum, someone made a suggestion that let the oil industry supply the bailout funds for the auto industry. The oil industry is flush with cash and needs the auto industry to use one of their products..gasoline.
Since the rubber industry and auto got linked together decades ago..the need for tires, this would be another good marriage..oil & auto.
Since the rubber industry and auto got linked together decades ago..the need for tires, this would be another good marriage..oil & auto.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-05-2008
Posts: 5,464
From: Akron Ohio
Here is some truths to clear up some of the myths posted here and elsewhere.
This was in todays Detroit Free Press and is not from any of the MFG.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Powers Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
J D Powers rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
This was in todays Detroit Free Press and is not from any of the MFG.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Powers Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
J D Powers rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-05-2008
Posts: 5,464
From: Akron Ohio
On another forum, someone made a suggestion that let the oil industry supply the bailout funds for the auto industry. The oil industry is flush with cash and needs the auto industry to use one of their products..gasoline.
Since the rubber industry and auto got linked together decades ago..the need for tires, this would be another good marriage..oil & auto.
Since the rubber industry and auto got linked together decades ago..the need for tires, this would be another good marriage..oil & auto.
The Oil and Auto industry are already joined if you by into the crack pot theroies of Exon buying those magic 100 MPG carbs up.
Founding Member
Joined: 11-23-2007
Posts: 8,210
From: Texas
Hyperv6,
I have been trying to tell people all of the myths above for years. GM makes what people want to buy, the quality is where the ricers are, but once you go ricey you never go back I guess.
GM used to pay this dealership over $100,000 per month for labor alone 8 years ago. Now with labor rates 30% higher than 2000 the payout is about $50,000 per month to us with only a 14% drop in total vehicles serviced for warranty repairs. Someone did something right. So we work on less vehicles GM pays us more per labor hour, yet their loss ratio has dropped 50%. That alone should tell you that their automobiles are much more reliable.
If anyone thinks that the Big 3 in the USA going out of business will be good for them, then there is no reason debating this issue. They are way past reasoning with and I hope they are ready for what will occur with millions out of work.
I have been trying to tell people all of the myths above for years. GM makes what people want to buy, the quality is where the ricers are, but once you go ricey you never go back I guess.
GM used to pay this dealership over $100,000 per month for labor alone 8 years ago. Now with labor rates 30% higher than 2000 the payout is about $50,000 per month to us with only a 14% drop in total vehicles serviced for warranty repairs. Someone did something right. So we work on less vehicles GM pays us more per labor hour, yet their loss ratio has dropped 50%. That alone should tell you that their automobiles are much more reliable.
If anyone thinks that the Big 3 in the USA going out of business will be good for them, then there is no reason debating this issue. They are way past reasoning with and I hope they are ready for what will occur with millions out of work.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-05-2008
Posts: 5,464
From: Akron Ohio
Hyperv6,
I have been trying to tell people all of the myths above for years. GM makes what people want to buy, the quality is where the ricers are, but once you go ricey you never go back I guess.
GM used to pay this dealership over $100,000 per month for labor alone 8 years ago. Now with labor rates 30% higher than 2000 the payout is about $50,000 per month to us with only a 14% drop in total vehicles serviced for warranty repairs. Someone did something right. So we work on less vehicles GM pays us more per labor hour, yet their loss ratio has dropped 50%. That alone should tell you that their automobiles are much more reliable.
If anyone thinks that the Big 3 in the USA going out of business will be good for them, then there is no reason debating this issue. They are way past reasoning with and I hope they are ready for what will occur with millions out of work.
I have been trying to tell people all of the myths above for years. GM makes what people want to buy, the quality is where the ricers are, but once you go ricey you never go back I guess.
GM used to pay this dealership over $100,000 per month for labor alone 8 years ago. Now with labor rates 30% higher than 2000 the payout is about $50,000 per month to us with only a 14% drop in total vehicles serviced for warranty repairs. Someone did something right. So we work on less vehicles GM pays us more per labor hour, yet their loss ratio has dropped 50%. That alone should tell you that their automobiles are much more reliable.
If anyone thinks that the Big 3 in the USA going out of business will be good for them, then there is no reason debating this issue. They are way past reasoning with and I hope they are ready for what will occur with millions out of work.
If CNN or the NY Times say something in a Editorial they take it hook line and sinker.
GM lost the peoples trust which was easy with some of the cars of the 70's but even with the new Malibu it is hard to win their trust and precieved quality.
I have a buddy who make a good living fixing imports that break just as much or more than many American brands. Also they cost more to fix many times as they are not as easy to fix. He had a Lexus SUV the other day you had to remove the intake top to get to the 3 rear plugs.
He makes a living on Honda and Toyota and drives a Chevy truck with 200,000 miles. I think that says a lot.
Banned
Joined: 08-25-2007
Posts: 488
From: Myrtle Beach SC
[QUOTE=Cokeybill;328624]
Get serious man these were common dumb issues which translates into DESIGN issues. he front rotors are a routine replacement item LOL. The handle that I use to close my rear hatch came of in my hands. Not Mexican labor. The design of the plastic is ridiculous , No screws no fasteners just pop in. Now I go look at Toyota's handle, Fastened securely.
And even if Mexico is the fault why the hell is GM building there? Toyota doesn't. Nissan doesn't. and if and when they do I will bet QC is looked at very very closely.
Chevy's door lock shafts are not even threaded!!
Everyone whines about executive pay but its a pittance when compared to the entire employee compensation package of ALL the employees. An executive cut in pay would be token at best. I want to know HOW GM and the rest are going to turn things around.....You can't give them money for business as usual.Obviously thats not working. The HHR is the first American car I bought in maybe 20 years........and the last. All flash no substance....no resale value, which is why I bought used. I really lov the car..The LOOK of the car, the roomyness, The fit and finish leave a lot to be desired still.
Let them reorganize like the Airlines and every other company that put more money into their labor force then the cars and at the expense of quality.
The militant "brotherhood " of the UAW is not needed anymore. Their time has come and gone as Toyota,Nissan and Honda more than proved in this country in many ways not the least of which is their quality and sales, and most importantly reputation.
Chapter 11 reorg allow a judge to review the contracts and make a decision. THEN help them get back on their feet leaner and meaner.
Propaganda.
We have a 2006 Rav 4 and a 2006 HHR guess which one has had the steering column replaced An ignition issue leaking moon roof...on and on
They both have the same miles and the Toyota has NEVER been in the shop, except for oil changes.
QUOTE]
HHR is Mexican built
...American built, maybe those problems wouldn't have occurred.
We have a 2006 Rav 4 and a 2006 HHR guess which one has had the steering column replaced An ignition issue leaking moon roof...on and on
They both have the same miles and the Toyota has NEVER been in the shop, except for oil changes.
QUOTE]
HHR is Mexican built
...American built, maybe those problems wouldn't have occurred.Get serious man these were common dumb issues which translates into DESIGN issues. he front rotors are a routine replacement item LOL. The handle that I use to close my rear hatch came of in my hands. Not Mexican labor. The design of the plastic is ridiculous , No screws no fasteners just pop in. Now I go look at Toyota's handle, Fastened securely.
And even if Mexico is the fault why the hell is GM building there? Toyota doesn't. Nissan doesn't. and if and when they do I will bet QC is looked at very very closely.
Chevy's door lock shafts are not even threaded!!
Everyone whines about executive pay but its a pittance when compared to the entire employee compensation package of ALL the employees. An executive cut in pay would be token at best. I want to know HOW GM and the rest are going to turn things around.....You can't give them money for business as usual.Obviously thats not working. The HHR is the first American car I bought in maybe 20 years........and the last. All flash no substance....no resale value, which is why I bought used. I really lov the car..The LOOK of the car, the roomyness, The fit and finish leave a lot to be desired still.
Let them reorganize like the Airlines and every other company that put more money into their labor force then the cars and at the expense of quality.
The militant "brotherhood " of the UAW is not needed anymore. Their time has come and gone as Toyota,Nissan and Honda more than proved in this country in many ways not the least of which is their quality and sales, and most importantly reputation.
Chapter 11 reorg allow a judge to review the contracts and make a decision. THEN help them get back on their feet leaner and meaner.
Banned
Joined: 08-25-2007
Posts: 488
From: Myrtle Beach SC
Here is some truths to clear up some of the myths posted here and elsewhere.
This was in todays Detroit Free Press and is not from any of the MFG.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Powers Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
J D Powers rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
This was in todays Detroit Free Press and is not from any of the MFG.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Powers Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
J D Powers rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
And yet only the US Automakers are on the brink of Bankruptcy. Because the CEO makes too much. I guess if he and all upper management worked free they would sell cars....
The UAW doesn't want to meet the real world salaries by the other US Automakers.......They US Auto companies products will be replaced by the foreign builders. Simple math. People will still need cars, service parts, gas etc. The moniker will mean nothing
Senior Member
Joined: 02-19-2008
Posts: 129
From: Los Alamos, NM
Kingfrog has it right. Those facts posted by hyperv6, assuming they're correct, prove that the problem is purely with the UAW. Management is somehow out-selling all those other manufacturers, but the UAW is bleeding them dry.
Here is an article comparing average compensations in the auto industry.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1050...per-hour-labor
No one should ever feel sorry for a UAW worker, that's for sure.
The UAW is, in essense, holding the rest of the auto industry hostage by not taking pay cuts immediately to stave off this bankruptcy. 3 million jobs are going to be lost because a few hundred thousand UAW workers won't take cuts.
Here is an article comparing average compensations in the auto industry.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1050...per-hour-labor
No one should ever feel sorry for a UAW worker, that's for sure.
The UAW is, in essense, holding the rest of the auto industry hostage by not taking pay cuts immediately to stave off this bankruptcy. 3 million jobs are going to be lost because a few hundred thousand UAW workers won't take cuts.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-05-2008
Posts: 5,464
From: Akron Ohio
Sorry the UAW is only a part of the problem.
The car companies should have down sized a long time ago and they did not fight the union on it so they hold some blaime too.
Lost market share has hurt them and the lost trust of the average person who does not know the first thing about a car.
GM leaders like Roger Smith and a few others screwed things up in the 70's and 80's that the present CEO is paying for today.
It would take a long post and a lot of time to sort it all out.
The bottom line is this is like needing heart surgery. you hate to get it done but if you don't your going to die soon.
I hate to see GM get the goverment involved as much as they do as they know they will have to sell their soul to the burocrats.
There will be strings that will be very difficult to meet like 50 MPG average CAFE etc. GM and the others don't want a bunch of congressmen telling them how to build cars. But they have no choice here. they really are down to the last out in the 9th. The only leverage they have is the US economy is highly based on the automotive field.
I wish I could blaime all on the UAW but I have to ba honest we can't. They do hold a good share of the blaime but it is unfair to lay it all on them as it is unfair to lay it all on the CEO and managment in charge now. They may have made some mistakes but they did not do all of this in just a few years.
It is time to stop the blaime game and get all sides to work together with out going into bankruptcy. This can be turned but it will take some give on all sides. Union, Management and Goverment.
The car companies should have down sized a long time ago and they did not fight the union on it so they hold some blaime too.
Lost market share has hurt them and the lost trust of the average person who does not know the first thing about a car.
GM leaders like Roger Smith and a few others screwed things up in the 70's and 80's that the present CEO is paying for today.
It would take a long post and a lot of time to sort it all out.
The bottom line is this is like needing heart surgery. you hate to get it done but if you don't your going to die soon.
I hate to see GM get the goverment involved as much as they do as they know they will have to sell their soul to the burocrats.
There will be strings that will be very difficult to meet like 50 MPG average CAFE etc. GM and the others don't want a bunch of congressmen telling them how to build cars. But they have no choice here. they really are down to the last out in the 9th. The only leverage they have is the US economy is highly based on the automotive field.
I wish I could blaime all on the UAW but I have to ba honest we can't. They do hold a good share of the blaime but it is unfair to lay it all on them as it is unfair to lay it all on the CEO and managment in charge now. They may have made some mistakes but they did not do all of this in just a few years.
It is time to stop the blaime game and get all sides to work together with out going into bankruptcy. This can be turned but it will take some give on all sides. Union, Management and Goverment.