HHR Won't Start - Will Crank
01-17-2012, 05:59 PM
#11
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Join Date: 06-26-2006
Location: San Bernardino, California
Posts: 1,876
Originally Posted by SolsticeMan
The term you are looking for is an "interference" engine. Yes, the ecotec is designed (like many OHC engines) as an interference engine. If your cam timing is far enough off, and you turn the motor over, tink-tink-tink-tink-tink-tink-tink-tink... you bend all of your valves as they kiss the tops of the piston.
I had a friend with a Quad-4 (another interference engine). (BTW, this is done to get better cylinder scavenging, flow, and for packaging reasons - I'm sure Padgett can comment). Anyways, my friend had about 145,000 miles on the car and was complaining that when he started his Oldsmobile Calais up there was a clattering sound from the area of the timing chain. My guess what the tensioner was shot (oil pressure operated), and maybe his chain/drive sprockets were worn and advised him to get the timing chain, tensioner and sprockets re-done. He went to a garage, said "ouch" at the $850+ they wanted, and took his chances.
Four weeks to the day later. He goes outside, starts his car, the clatter gets loud and the car won't start to save it's life. He cranks and cranks. Hmmm, no deal.
Sold to car to another friend that races a quad-4 in SCCA club racing as a replacement for a grenaded Q-4. Friend 2 finally pulls the motor and sho-nuff!! EVERY exhaust valve kissed the pistons and were bent by about 3-5 degrees. They looked like they were designed that way, but tear down the motor, throw away the head (with the gouged up valve seats), pistons, and I got further confirmation of my formidable remote diagnostic skills - worn timing chain, bad tensioner, chewed up main and cam sprockets from the worn chain... And the cam sprockets were off exactly 3 teeth. Apparently, this is what the chain skipped on the fateful morning.
But, like it or not, interference designed motors are here as long as DOHC configurations are around.
I had a friend with a Quad-4 (another interference engine). (BTW, this is done to get better cylinder scavenging, flow, and for packaging reasons - I'm sure Padgett can comment). Anyways, my friend had about 145,000 miles on the car and was complaining that when he started his Oldsmobile Calais up there was a clattering sound from the area of the timing chain. My guess what the tensioner was shot (oil pressure operated), and maybe his chain/drive sprockets were worn and advised him to get the timing chain, tensioner and sprockets re-done. He went to a garage, said "ouch" at the $850+ they wanted, and took his chances.
Four weeks to the day later. He goes outside, starts his car, the clatter gets loud and the car won't start to save it's life. He cranks and cranks. Hmmm, no deal.
Sold to car to another friend that races a quad-4 in SCCA club racing as a replacement for a grenaded Q-4. Friend 2 finally pulls the motor and sho-nuff!! EVERY exhaust valve kissed the pistons and were bent by about 3-5 degrees. They looked like they were designed that way, but tear down the motor, throw away the head (with the gouged up valve seats), pistons, and I got further confirmation of my formidable remote diagnostic skills - worn timing chain, bad tensioner, chewed up main and cam sprockets from the worn chain... And the cam sprockets were off exactly 3 teeth. Apparently, this is what the chain skipped on the fateful morning.
But, like it or not, interference designed motors are here as long as DOHC configurations are around.
01-17-2012, 06:47 PM
#12
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Join Date: 02-26-2010
Location: Columbus, OH
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Well, it appears that one of the two camshafts has "jumped" in the chain. With the intake cam at 2 o'clock, the exhaust sits somewhere around 12+ o'clock. Any good ways to check and see if the valves have been trashed, short of pulling the head?
01-17-2012, 08:15 PM
#14
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I'm thinking I'll go ahead and pull the front cover off, set the position of all of the elements, and try a compression test from there. If it comes off halfway decent, that is a good indicator. Otherwise, I'll need to do a leak down test with both sets of valves closed to see if everything is A-OK with the valve set.
Also, will a bore scope fit through the spark plug port? If so, will it be able to turn to inspect the valves?
Thanks for the insight, everyone, I'm finding it helpful. I wish the problem was much simpler, but that's how life goes.
Also, will a bore scope fit through the spark plug port? If so, will it be able to turn to inspect the valves?
Thanks for the insight, everyone, I'm finding it helpful. I wish the problem was much simpler, but that's how life goes.
01-22-2012, 05:25 PM
#15
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Update
It seems that the Chain Guide, Right, has broken off of the lower mounting bolt. Based on this, the chain was loose and broke part of the upper chain guide. I'm working on figuring out how far out of time each camshaft is. I should be running a leak down test tomorrow, once I build a tester.
01-22-2012, 05:48 PM
#16
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It seems that the Chain Guide, Right, has broken off of the lower mounting bolt. Based on this, the chain was loose and broke part of the upper chain guide. I'm working on figuring out how far out of time each camshaft is. I should be running a leak down test tomorrow, once I build a tester.
01-22-2012, 06:02 PM
#17
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I hadn't guessed that they'd have a leak down kit available. I'll give a couple of places a call tonight to see if they have it. Thanks for the tip!
Also, looks like it is the intake camshaft that has moved
. It seems to have retarded from 2 o'clock to 12 o'clock in the grand scheme. I'm not sure if this guarantees a strike, but I would have felt better if it had been the exhaust cam.
Also, looks like it is the intake camshaft that has moved
. It seems to have retarded from 2 o'clock to 12 o'clock in the grand scheme. I'm not sure if this guarantees a strike, but I would have felt better if it had been the exhaust cam.
01-22-2012, 08:16 PM
#18
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They all have pretty much the same kits, different brands. PepBoys and AutoZone make it easier to check online. I have had some success Googling the kit name "leak down kit loaner" then scroll to a store site. Advance makes it absolutely impossible to find the loaners, PEP has a tab for them.
07-07-2012, 08:50 AM
#19
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Join Date: 02-26-2010
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I'm sorry that I hadn't updated with what I found!
In January I replaced the timing set in my HHR with a mixture of parts from Autozone and GM. That fixed the issue since the car had seemed to jump timing when I shut it down the day before I had the crank, no-start issue. Temperatures and efficiencies were in line with spec and the car ran great. However, there was still an occasional rattle from the timing set until the car built some oil pressure. I assume this is due to the oil-pressure-force take up of the tensioner on the timing chain. I was hoping to get another two years from the engine without having any other timing issues. Not so lucky it would seem.
Yesterday while driving home on the highway from work, my car lost all power (engine shut down) and reduced power warnings and CEL came on. Got off on the side of the road and tried to restart vehicle. Nothing, just a high-pitched starter whine. So I get towed home and this morning I open up the valve cover and find that my timing chain has snapped. Looks like a brittle failure of the side plates of one of the links of the chain. I hold no hope that the valves/pistons dodged each other this time.
So it would seem that I will be looking for an engine for my little black trooper.
In January I replaced the timing set in my HHR with a mixture of parts from Autozone and GM. That fixed the issue since the car had seemed to jump timing when I shut it down the day before I had the crank, no-start issue. Temperatures and efficiencies were in line with spec and the car ran great. However, there was still an occasional rattle from the timing set until the car built some oil pressure. I assume this is due to the oil-pressure-force take up of the tensioner on the timing chain. I was hoping to get another two years from the engine without having any other timing issues. Not so lucky it would seem.
Yesterday while driving home on the highway from work, my car lost all power (engine shut down) and reduced power warnings and CEL came on. Got off on the side of the road and tried to restart vehicle. Nothing, just a high-pitched starter whine. So I get towed home and this morning I open up the valve cover and find that my timing chain has snapped. Looks like a brittle failure of the side plates of one of the links of the chain. I hold no hope that the valves/pistons dodged each other this time.
So it would seem that I will be looking for an engine for my little black trooper.
