ZZP FULL INTAKE, bring 'em out.
Member
Joined: 02-23-2012
Posts: 27
From: Detroit
you shouldnt have to get an updated tune to run this pipe....if you have a trifecta, or a ZZP tune, your stock turbo is pretty well maxed out anyways, more air in will yield more power.... if your car is 100% bone stock, yes, it'll likely learn down somewhat......but not on a car that is already tuned.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-16-2011
Posts: 267
From: Georgia
Steve, with Trifecta ive seen files where Vince did not turn off learn down feature. Actually there is a topic on this matter for the kappa cars...
Regardless I look forward to your results
If you buy the cable vince doesn't charge for updates. Least he hasn't me with my trailblazer SS ....
Regardless I look forward to your results
If you buy the cable vince doesn't charge for updates. Least he hasn't me with my trailblazer SS ....
Senior Member
Joined: 01-02-2012
Posts: 334
From: Livermore, CA
If you have the GMS1 you'll be fine. The learn down gets disable with the GMS1
Member
Joined: 02-23-2012
Posts: 27
From: Detroit
I understand the airload tables...I'm trying to get an answer to a completely different question though. Airload tables and whether or not stock/GMS1 users will see a difference has nothing to do with MAF calibration and fuel trims.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-16-2011
Posts: 267
From: Georgia
Guys, there isn't such a thing as a 'learn-down' feature.
It doesn't exist, so you can't turn it off or on.
Airload & torque based tables do it all.
Think of your program as a like how a rev limiter works.
But it's really a torque limiter, torque controlled, where ,how, & when.
Stock program allows X amount of torque.
GMS1 allows a larger amount of torque.
Good self ,or tuner tuned, allows maximum torque.
Bad tuners will limit maximum torque, where, how & when, to where they
see fit, & will cause you fits.
That's why you don't need re-tuned.
Once your tuned, little things like intakes, on an HHR, won't make a
hoot to the program, as it's not adding much.
Now if you add a big power/torque maker to your HHR, you'll need
programming changes to control where , how, & when , you want the power
to came in at, you need to control it, to make it useful.
It doesn't exist, so you can't turn it off or on.
Airload & torque based tables do it all.
Think of your program as a like how a rev limiter works.
But it's really a torque limiter, torque controlled, where ,how, & when.
Stock program allows X amount of torque.
GMS1 allows a larger amount of torque.
Good self ,or tuner tuned, allows maximum torque.
Bad tuners will limit maximum torque, where, how & when, to where they
see fit, & will cause you fits.
That's why you don't need re-tuned.
Once your tuned, little things like intakes, on an HHR, won't make a
hoot to the program, as it's not adding much.
Now if you add a big power/torque maker to your HHR, you'll need
programming changes to control where , how, & when , you want the power
to came in at, you need to control it, to make it useful.
WRONG
plain and simple
If its a canbus data system it has learn down safety
Say whatever you want but it's proven
It IS a feature easily turned off in tables though
GMS tune removes learn down you'll see it turned off, this allows basic bolt ons without retune but to max gains you should retune
Biggest enemy for automatics that I've seen tables for is how rich they seem to run and the drop in power at 5600-6400 to protect tranny
Want proof data log a bolt on, wait 3 engine cycles and log again. You'll see the adjustments that happen
Senior Member
Joined: 07-16-2011
Posts: 267
From: Georgia
Oh and actually YOUR tuner describes it best
The "Learn Down" feature. Because the LNF's ECM uses torque based controls it is much more advanced as far as limiting or adding to the torque that is desired from it. All modern ECMs that I have seen have Torque Management (TM) tables, and the LNF is no exception, but its entire engine management system is built around Driver Desired Torque vs Actual Torque Output. Driver desired torque is based on Pedal Position, RPM, Desired Airload, and Maximum Airload Torque. Those values determine Optimum Engine Torque which calculates engine torque output based on 1.00 Lambda. The Lambda Efficiency table changes calculated engine torque based on A/F Ratio expressed as Lambda. Leaner than 1.00 Lambda will produce less actual torque, and richer than 1.00 Lambda (up to a point) will produce more actual torque output. The "Learn Down" that most notice occurs when adding mods or driving in very cold weather they notice the boost pressure values have gone down. The ECMs torque based controls are to blame for this. If breathing efficiency is increased either from adding mods or from a denser air charge the ECM compensates for this by decreasing its Desired Boost pressure values. It does so because Actual Torque Output is modeled as greater than Desired Torque output. The GM Stage 1 tune raises the Desired Boost and Actual Torque output levels but does NOT completely remove the learn down but it does raise it. Other Tunes work the same way. They do not completely remove the learn down they merely raise it to a level that the car cannot acheive in the first place. Think of the learn down more like a target airload level or target torque output level. If you add mods or change the charge air density the ECM will sense that it is reaching its target torque output much more easily than before. That is not to say that adding mods without a tune will produce no gains at all. It is possible when adding mods like a catless DP and an Intake to make more power than stock even without being retuned. Although the gains are much larger if you retune the car I have seen evidence that even thousands of miles after adding mods a car will still dyno higher than stock. I have seen a stock tune LNF with an Intake and Catless DP make 254 whp and 272 wrtq thousands of miles after first adding the mods. That car stock on that same dyno would made 243 whp and 251 wrtq.
The "Learn Down" feature. Because the LNF's ECM uses torque based controls it is much more advanced as far as limiting or adding to the torque that is desired from it. All modern ECMs that I have seen have Torque Management (TM) tables, and the LNF is no exception, but its entire engine management system is built around Driver Desired Torque vs Actual Torque Output. Driver desired torque is based on Pedal Position, RPM, Desired Airload, and Maximum Airload Torque. Those values determine Optimum Engine Torque which calculates engine torque output based on 1.00 Lambda. The Lambda Efficiency table changes calculated engine torque based on A/F Ratio expressed as Lambda. Leaner than 1.00 Lambda will produce less actual torque, and richer than 1.00 Lambda (up to a point) will produce more actual torque output. The "Learn Down" that most notice occurs when adding mods or driving in very cold weather they notice the boost pressure values have gone down. The ECMs torque based controls are to blame for this. If breathing efficiency is increased either from adding mods or from a denser air charge the ECM compensates for this by decreasing its Desired Boost pressure values. It does so because Actual Torque Output is modeled as greater than Desired Torque output. The GM Stage 1 tune raises the Desired Boost and Actual Torque output levels but does NOT completely remove the learn down but it does raise it. Other Tunes work the same way. They do not completely remove the learn down they merely raise it to a level that the car cannot acheive in the first place. Think of the learn down more like a target airload level or target torque output level. If you add mods or change the charge air density the ECM will sense that it is reaching its target torque output much more easily than before. That is not to say that adding mods without a tune will produce no gains at all. It is possible when adding mods like a catless DP and an Intake to make more power than stock even without being retuned. Although the gains are much larger if you retune the car I have seen evidence that even thousands of miles after adding mods a car will still dyno higher than stock. I have seen a stock tune LNF with an Intake and Catless DP make 254 whp and 272 wrtq thousands of miles after first adding the mods. That car stock on that same dyno would made 243 whp and 251 wrtq.
