Diesel power
Banned
Joined: 10-24-2006
Posts: 1,761
From: The Show-Me State
I have the 2.4 and I've never had any issues running 87 octane gas in the car. I also get a reliable 30 MPG during highway cruising and about 25-27 in city stop and go. I don't mash the throttle or brakes and I change the oil when the DIC tells me to change it.
Diesel fuel will be higher than gasoline come fall and winter when it has to compete with diesel for trucks, Jet A for aircraft, and heating oil for homes. The difference in price between my HHR and a TDI Jetta was also more than enough to defray the difference in fuel consumption and fuel cost over the lifetime of the vehicle to more than justify the purchase of the HHR.
All of the major auto manufacturers have developed incredibly reliable small diesel engines over the last 25 years, but it is so difficult to bring them into and market them in the US that it's just not worth it for the small number of sales you'll get.
Diesel fuel will be higher than gasoline come fall and winter when it has to compete with diesel for trucks, Jet A for aircraft, and heating oil for homes. The difference in price between my HHR and a TDI Jetta was also more than enough to defray the difference in fuel consumption and fuel cost over the lifetime of the vehicle to more than justify the purchase of the HHR.
All of the major auto manufacturers have developed incredibly reliable small diesel engines over the last 25 years, but it is so difficult to bring them into and market them in the US that it's just not worth it for the small number of sales you'll get.
Joined: 06-18-2007
Posts: 1
From: Chester, SC
Yea, I'd love a diesel option
Well, I just bought my HHR last week. It's a LT1, 2.2, silver w/ chrome package...
I like it....and I'm an owner of a 2000 VW Jetta TDI too...so I thought I'd weigh in.
I bought the HHR for several reasons:
1. I'm own a Tool/Die shop, and one of my customers have roots in the US truck manufacturing....so it was somewhat selfishly motivated by my desire to make sure I wasn't offending some of my customers by driving a "foreign" car...(though the HHR is made in Mexico....lol...and my one of my bigger customers is an American 2nd tier manufacturer/supplier to BMW....it's rapidly becoming a strange world)
2. My Jetta TDI blew it's 2nd turbo after 20,000 miles (though the 1st one lasted to 194,000...so I guess I can't complain). I'm having it fixed though, and selling it on e-bay as diesels are holding their value unbelievably right now for obvious reasons.
3. The 100,000 powertrain warranty really pushed me over the "edge". I do ALOT of driving, about 45,000 to 50,000 miles a year....otherwise I probably would have a used car...and I'm 36 years old, 2 kids(3.5 and 2.5), another due next Thursday...and THIS IS MY FIRST NEW CAR PURCHASE....EVER.
4. Space for my delivery's when folding the seats down...
5. Budget...it fit mine...which is not the biggest.
The HHR is cool looking, American, and has OK fuel mileage....
Comparing a Jetta TDI to it is really unfair as they are two different creaturs as far as the drivetrain in concerned. I really abused my Jetta badly, doing 80 mph all over the place, towing rountinely with it too(90 hp motor, 166 ft.lbs torque for 2000 model year...can you say "turbo" all the time?
), and sometimes I was towing in around 1700 lbs.....lol...truly I've abused the Jetta...but:
It got 44 mpg, (at 80 mph!) on the highway, and a startling 32 mpg when towing around 1500 lbs....
Truly an amazing engine, which of course did win International ICE awards for 2 years in a row....
I'm selling the Jetta because it has 215,000 on it now...and I just drive too much to risk getting stranded as it gets older...but it probably has another 100,000 left in it....
Anyway, as you might know, 40% of the cars sold in Europe are diesel...and there are really some great engines over there we don't see here unfortunately...and I think a small turbo diesel for the HHR would be a runaway hit once the public starts getting used to seeing more of small diesels(Jeep Liberty diesel, Mercedes of course, and VW re-entering the market in 2008).
It would get killer mileage, have a better capacity for towing due to the increased torque curve, and if GM has one with a timing chain(as opposed to VW's belt) it would be less maintenance...I've always wondered why GM hasn't moved into the small car/diesel market with all of it's experience in truck diesels.....
I hope they do it one day...it happens to also be the easiest way to raise the fleet MPG without a huge investment in newer technology....ahhhhh...we can only hope I guess for now...
Nick
I like it....and I'm an owner of a 2000 VW Jetta TDI too...so I thought I'd weigh in.
I bought the HHR for several reasons:
1. I'm own a Tool/Die shop, and one of my customers have roots in the US truck manufacturing....so it was somewhat selfishly motivated by my desire to make sure I wasn't offending some of my customers by driving a "foreign" car...(though the HHR is made in Mexico....lol...and my one of my bigger customers is an American 2nd tier manufacturer/supplier to BMW....it's rapidly becoming a strange world)
2. My Jetta TDI blew it's 2nd turbo after 20,000 miles (though the 1st one lasted to 194,000...so I guess I can't complain). I'm having it fixed though, and selling it on e-bay as diesels are holding their value unbelievably right now for obvious reasons.
3. The 100,000 powertrain warranty really pushed me over the "edge". I do ALOT of driving, about 45,000 to 50,000 miles a year....otherwise I probably would have a used car...and I'm 36 years old, 2 kids(3.5 and 2.5), another due next Thursday...and THIS IS MY FIRST NEW CAR PURCHASE....EVER.
4. Space for my delivery's when folding the seats down...
5. Budget...it fit mine...which is not the biggest.
The HHR is cool looking, American, and has OK fuel mileage....
Comparing a Jetta TDI to it is really unfair as they are two different creaturs as far as the drivetrain in concerned. I really abused my Jetta badly, doing 80 mph all over the place, towing rountinely with it too(90 hp motor, 166 ft.lbs torque for 2000 model year...can you say "turbo" all the time?
), and sometimes I was towing in around 1700 lbs.....lol...truly I've abused the Jetta...but:It got 44 mpg, (at 80 mph!) on the highway, and a startling 32 mpg when towing around 1500 lbs....
Truly an amazing engine, which of course did win International ICE awards for 2 years in a row....
I'm selling the Jetta because it has 215,000 on it now...and I just drive too much to risk getting stranded as it gets older...but it probably has another 100,000 left in it....
Anyway, as you might know, 40% of the cars sold in Europe are diesel...and there are really some great engines over there we don't see here unfortunately...and I think a small turbo diesel for the HHR would be a runaway hit once the public starts getting used to seeing more of small diesels(Jeep Liberty diesel, Mercedes of course, and VW re-entering the market in 2008).
It would get killer mileage, have a better capacity for towing due to the increased torque curve, and if GM has one with a timing chain(as opposed to VW's belt) it would be less maintenance...I've always wondered why GM hasn't moved into the small car/diesel market with all of it's experience in truck diesels.....
I hope they do it one day...it happens to also be the easiest way to raise the fleet MPG without a huge investment in newer technology....ahhhhh...we can only hope I guess for now...
Nick
Senior Member
Joined: 05-01-2006
Posts: 2,507
From: New London, CT USA
Thanks for the info Nickelodeon and WELCOME to the site!
The HHr is a fun beast and I do hope Gm has some more plans for its powerplant(s). An electric Hybrid or clean deisel would be welcome in my world. The HHR seems to me a good platform to work on.
The more I read about these new modern diesels, the more interested and excited i become. Frankly MPG is becoming more important to me than get up and go. But with a toquey diesel you can get some of both depending upon the design.
I've learned a lot about diesels in my other car forum for the Honda Odyssey. An ongoing discussion with a lot of links and quote like the one here. I have always thought of diesels as slow, smelly, dirty, and other not so nice adjectives!
A decent thread is here if anyone wishes to explore furthur:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showth...threadid=39157
A bit from my post there. A guy responding to my quirey into these new diesels:
"If you haven't driven a modern diesel, well, you just haven't experienced the fun that driving the torque can bring. After nearly 5 years of ownership my turbo diesel still brings a smile to my face every time I drive it. Oh... did I mention it gets 50 MPG + without even trying??!! I can't wait for a common rail diesel engine to be available in a minivan. By the way... my fuel has never gelled, I don't have an engine heater, and smell??? What smell?? You're thinking diesels from 25 years ago. I owned a couple of those too.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- My response
"Sounds intriguing. Time for me to get up to speed on the newer diesel way of life. I'm over any hot rod/ uber performance needs in my life. High MPG and decent low end torque are welcome in my world now.
The only diesel car I had anything to do with was a 1982 Chevette Diesel. It was cobbled together from two wrecks., literally welded bilaterally together. . It proved an interesting vehicle in a number of ways. I sold it to a friend who's legaly blind dad loved it and drove through Boston with it in the early '90's!
But yes, I remember the smell, the sound, the lack of real pep that was that diesel econobox .
Sure glad things are better now."
I'm no dogmatic purist. I've had engine grease running through my family's blood since my grandfather made Chrylers and Pope Hartfords in 1909! We've run our boats, trucks and cars on a variety of fuels and even had a 40 gal barrel of Kerosene to keep our tools clean. No Zep for our non OSHA shop.........
Funny these two forums having such similar discussions with folks like yourself who have had great luck with modern diesels helping show the rest of us that things have changed in the diesel world.
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this interesting discussion. Let's keep it going
Perhps the US will be more receptive to diesel with the next wave coming from Chrysler and VW. Time will tell.
The HHr is a fun beast and I do hope Gm has some more plans for its powerplant(s). An electric Hybrid or clean deisel would be welcome in my world. The HHR seems to me a good platform to work on.
The more I read about these new modern diesels, the more interested and excited i become. Frankly MPG is becoming more important to me than get up and go. But with a toquey diesel you can get some of both depending upon the design.
I've learned a lot about diesels in my other car forum for the Honda Odyssey. An ongoing discussion with a lot of links and quote like the one here. I have always thought of diesels as slow, smelly, dirty, and other not so nice adjectives!
A decent thread is here if anyone wishes to explore furthur:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showth...threadid=39157
A bit from my post there. A guy responding to my quirey into these new diesels:
"If you haven't driven a modern diesel, well, you just haven't experienced the fun that driving the torque can bring. After nearly 5 years of ownership my turbo diesel still brings a smile to my face every time I drive it. Oh... did I mention it gets 50 MPG + without even trying??!! I can't wait for a common rail diesel engine to be available in a minivan. By the way... my fuel has never gelled, I don't have an engine heater, and smell??? What smell?? You're thinking diesels from 25 years ago. I owned a couple of those too.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- My response
"Sounds intriguing. Time for me to get up to speed on the newer diesel way of life. I'm over any hot rod/ uber performance needs in my life. High MPG and decent low end torque are welcome in my world now.
The only diesel car I had anything to do with was a 1982 Chevette Diesel. It was cobbled together from two wrecks., literally welded bilaterally together. . It proved an interesting vehicle in a number of ways. I sold it to a friend who's legaly blind dad loved it and drove through Boston with it in the early '90's!
But yes, I remember the smell, the sound, the lack of real pep that was that diesel econobox .
Sure glad things are better now."
I'm no dogmatic purist. I've had engine grease running through my family's blood since my grandfather made Chrylers and Pope Hartfords in 1909! We've run our boats, trucks and cars on a variety of fuels and even had a 40 gal barrel of Kerosene to keep our tools clean. No Zep for our non OSHA shop.........
Funny these two forums having such similar discussions with folks like yourself who have had great luck with modern diesels helping show the rest of us that things have changed in the diesel world.
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this interesting discussion. Let's keep it going
Perhps the US will be more receptive to diesel with the next wave coming from Chrysler and VW. Time will tell.
to the site!!!
Senior Member
Joined: 05-26-2007
Posts: 1,554
From: ...
My wife's car is a 2005 Volkswagen Beetle TDI. Its a 1.9 liter turbo-diesel, using unit injectors, i.e. each cylinder has its own injector pump. VW called it "Pumpe Deuse". However, they dropped the pumpe deuse technology in favor of going to common rail, due to common rail is more suitable to cleaner burn and meeting the new stricter emissions regs. This is why there are no VW TDI's in their 2007 model year-- the changeover to common rail diesel is underway.
As for our TDI, we love it. While, its only 100 hp, it peaks 177 lb-ft of torque @ 2000rpm. You can feel the torque come in when you're driving it. Its a 5-speed manual transaxle, and due to the low end grunt you don't have to downshift on hills a lot of the time. It is a little slow off the line only because 1st gear is pretty short, but once its into 2nd gear it picks up and romps. Get on it, though and it'll put out the diesel smoke. Handy for tailgaters: with rpm's around 2000 give it full pedal and treat the tailgater to some dark rich diesel smoke.
Should also add, the TDI is a short stroke diesel-- her Beetle TDI redlines at either 4700 or 5000 rpm (can't remember at the moment), pretty high for a diesel.
Seriously, though, it is quite fun to drive and it is the only car I've driven that has more power with the air conditioning ON than off. This is because the PCM commands a larger IQ (Injection Quantity) and adds some extra boost lower in the rpm range to compensate for the air cond drag and it ends up over compensating, at least on her car. Pretty cool.
It gets 42mpg tooling around the 'burbs and around 48 to 50 to the diesel US gallon on the interstate.
On the VW TDI's you can do a chip tune upgrade and get the 1.9L TDI up to around 140hp and about 235 lb-ft torque, but you have to upgrade the clutch and a limited slip transaxle mod is recommended. MPG drops though, if you "chip it and rip it".
As for cold weather ops, coldest its gotten the past two winters has been single digits (Fahrenheit) about 7 degrees. They cut the diesel here in winter w/ kerosene to lower the cloud point but I still used some Stanadyne to be on the safe side since her car parks outside. No problems starting up whatsoever both winters. Glow plugs only fire in pre-glow mode for a max of about 4 seconds even when it was single digits and low double digit temps on morning start-up. However upon starting get some white smoke (common w/ cold diesel) for a minute and some pretty pronounced diesel clatter but the glow plugs in after-glow mode help quiet it down after abit. Due to also being equipped with three coolant glow plugs in addition to the four cylinder glow plugs it does warm up a little by idling, however to get the engine up to temp you have to drive it (put load on engine)-- this is just part of owning a diesel. It is why in cold climates you ALWAYS want a heated seats option on a diesel, because they do tend to take a little longer to blow warm air out the heater vents. VW's coolant glow plugs do help in this area, but it still takes abit longer than an equivalent displacement gasoline engine to blow warm air from the heater.
For tons of expert info on VW TDI's head over to http://www.tdiclub.com
As for our TDI, we love it. While, its only 100 hp, it peaks 177 lb-ft of torque @ 2000rpm. You can feel the torque come in when you're driving it. Its a 5-speed manual transaxle, and due to the low end grunt you don't have to downshift on hills a lot of the time. It is a little slow off the line only because 1st gear is pretty short, but once its into 2nd gear it picks up and romps. Get on it, though and it'll put out the diesel smoke. Handy for tailgaters: with rpm's around 2000 give it full pedal and treat the tailgater to some dark rich diesel smoke.
Should also add, the TDI is a short stroke diesel-- her Beetle TDI redlines at either 4700 or 5000 rpm (can't remember at the moment), pretty high for a diesel.
Seriously, though, it is quite fun to drive and it is the only car I've driven that has more power with the air conditioning ON than off. This is because the PCM commands a larger IQ (Injection Quantity) and adds some extra boost lower in the rpm range to compensate for the air cond drag and it ends up over compensating, at least on her car. Pretty cool.
It gets 42mpg tooling around the 'burbs and around 48 to 50 to the diesel US gallon on the interstate.
On the VW TDI's you can do a chip tune upgrade and get the 1.9L TDI up to around 140hp and about 235 lb-ft torque, but you have to upgrade the clutch and a limited slip transaxle mod is recommended. MPG drops though, if you "chip it and rip it".
As for cold weather ops, coldest its gotten the past two winters has been single digits (Fahrenheit) about 7 degrees. They cut the diesel here in winter w/ kerosene to lower the cloud point but I still used some Stanadyne to be on the safe side since her car parks outside. No problems starting up whatsoever both winters. Glow plugs only fire in pre-glow mode for a max of about 4 seconds even when it was single digits and low double digit temps on morning start-up. However upon starting get some white smoke (common w/ cold diesel) for a minute and some pretty pronounced diesel clatter but the glow plugs in after-glow mode help quiet it down after abit. Due to also being equipped with three coolant glow plugs in addition to the four cylinder glow plugs it does warm up a little by idling, however to get the engine up to temp you have to drive it (put load on engine)-- this is just part of owning a diesel. It is why in cold climates you ALWAYS want a heated seats option on a diesel, because they do tend to take a little longer to blow warm air out the heater vents. VW's coolant glow plugs do help in this area, but it still takes abit longer than an equivalent displacement gasoline engine to blow warm air from the heater.
For tons of expert info on VW TDI's head over to http://www.tdiclub.com
Last edited by Lone Ranger; Jun 25, 2007 at 10:11 PM. Reason: add cold weather info
Senior Member
Joined: 05-26-2007
Posts: 1,554
From: ...
"Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races." -- Carol Shelby, date unknown
Senior Member
Joined: 05-01-2006
Posts: 2,507
From: New London, CT USA
Hey thanks LR. Cool info. I'm hoping this diesel thing can be tamed and it seems you folks have it down, so there is hope. Nice info on the warmup bit. My 1960 Corvair had a gas heater that fired right up and got you toasty! Back then MPG were just letters on a spec sheet!
The "chip it and rip it" option sounds like a way to go for those who want a large increase in HP. That is a great difference, 40HP! WOW! If it only takes MPG down a small percent than even an MPG junkie might do it.
I'll be checking out those forums too.
Thanks
The "chip it and rip it" option sounds like a way to go for those who want a large increase in HP. That is a great difference, 40HP! WOW! If it only takes MPG down a small percent than even an MPG junkie might do it.
I'll be checking out those forums too.
Thanks
Senior Member
Joined: 05-26-2007
Posts: 1,554
From: ...
I need to correct one thing I said above. You have to upgrade the injector nozzles to get above 130hp with a chip upgrade. But RocketChip Stage II is about the best bang for the buck, gets the 1.9L TDI to about 130 hp and over 215 lb-ft for around $800 plug and play (actually you have to ship your ecu to them and have the chip installed).
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