8 12"s with the seats up?
Senior Member
Joined: 03-11-2012
Posts: 181
From: Western WI
OP - you put 800 watts to this sub when it clearly states 300rms and 700max? And you are wondering why you smelled something?
I beg you to go sit in a properly time aligned SQ car. You will be amazed at how different your outlook on car audio will be afterwards.
Silver - no offense but that guys install is the most hideous thing and out of place thing I have ever seen. It wastes the entire back area without even taking up the entire back area. If that were my SUV I would have said NO re-do it now.
Do any of you use processing with time alignment? I used to be like you guys always wanting the biggest loudest subs that took the most power but then I sat in a properly set up/time aligned truck that had only one sub but used a 3 way front. OMG the vocals and the impact all being on the dash and beyond was incredible. I actually could not listen to my stereo for 4 days after that. The old me just thought that more bass and more tweet was what it was all about. There is so much more.
The same thing happend to my girl when she heard my system after time alignment. She said now I am jealous so I bought her the same Pioneer DEH 80prs hu I am using. My boss, who has hi-end Boston comps front and rear plus two subs, did not believe that there would be much difference in mine vs his until he heard the first few seconds of my system. He stated three things that stood out the most. First was "wow you have vocals that I could never have". Second was "now I see what you are talking about". The third was "you don't have much bass coming from the rear, all your bass must be coming from the doors". I laughed and smiled to all comments.
I beg you to go sit in a properly time aligned SQ car. You will be amazed at how different your outlook on car audio will be afterwards.
Silver - no offense but that guys install is the most hideous thing and out of place thing I have ever seen. It wastes the entire back area without even taking up the entire back area. If that were my SUV I would have said NO re-do it now.
Do any of you use processing with time alignment? I used to be like you guys always wanting the biggest loudest subs that took the most power but then I sat in a properly set up/time aligned truck that had only one sub but used a 3 way front. OMG the vocals and the impact all being on the dash and beyond was incredible. I actually could not listen to my stereo for 4 days after that. The old me just thought that more bass and more tweet was what it was all about. There is so much more.
The same thing happend to my girl when she heard my system after time alignment. She said now I am jealous so I bought her the same Pioneer DEH 80prs hu I am using. My boss, who has hi-end Boston comps front and rear plus two subs, did not believe that there would be much difference in mine vs his until he heard the first few seconds of my system. He stated three things that stood out the most. First was "wow you have vocals that I could never have". Second was "now I see what you are talking about". The third was "you don't have much bass coming from the rear, all your bass must be coming from the doors". I laughed and smiled to all comments.
"You guys" ???
You talk as if you know something others don't. Of course I'm going to use a processor, it can be done by ear and placement as well but I plan to invest in a processor this round. I've heard systems timed by ear that sound much better then processed ones but it's all personal preference and also depends what your sound goal is.
That internal Pioneer is kinda a cheaper way of doing it but if it works...it's a well rated head unit but it's still limited to what it can do for timing. I plan to grab an external Alpine H-800. I'm not a fan of processors, I like doing it by ear and making all adjustments manually, but I've heard this Alpine and a Audison Bitone in less superior systems then I have planned and it was two of the most amazing systems I have ever heard. I believe somewhere in this thread I mention my uncles Boston A system, he had a head unit with a processor in his and it sounded amazing, better then anything I've even owned. So I know processors work and being I'm going to be less hands on with my audio this round I'm just finally going to bite the coin and pony up the cash for a good one.
I'll have all the work documented in a thread starting soon. I'll be doing power and suspension upgrades first, then slowly the stereo and body. So I'm guessing by May I'll have everything finished and documented here and I will put some videos up on youtube as well and link them in my thread.
Peace
Senior Member
Joined: 10-06-2011
Posts: 1,150
From: Mesa, AZ
Yea the 80prs is limited which is why I ended up switching my amps to Zapco DC Reference amps to pick up the extra channels of t/a. My point was about the use of t/a. Pioneer does make a big brother to the 80prs in the form of the P99rs that has the extra 2 channels but it is friggen over a grand. I paid less for my amps and this hu combined lol.
Regardless of which unit you use they should all be able to take you beyond what the install can get you. This is not saying a great install is not warrented because a great install will get you close. But a great install will not be able to put the image directly in front of you. Insted it will have a great center image but like you have discovered the t/a ability takes it even further.
Like I said I used to think lots of bass then a set of comps that could scream loud enough to be able to hear them with the subs and all focus under the rear view mirror. Heck my current install has 3" mids and tweets in my pillars and they are aligned to hit the opposite side window just in front of where your ears would be so that I get a great center image. This works very good and if I had never heard a t/a'd car I would have been very very happy with this. Infact it still sounds very good without the t/a. But the t/a moves the stage in front of me and really really steps up the SQ of the system. I recently started to use a mic to dial in final t/a and phase of all drivers and WOW is all I can say. The impact has really improved thanks to t/a. Proper phase does a lot of it but again the t/a takes it further. It gets all speakers to reach you at the same time. Phase and level matching can not do this. Phase will reduce the possibility of cancelation issues, level matching will take care of axis and distance issues as they relate to decible levels, and t/a will get all sounds arriving at the same time and allow for image location correction/relocation.
Regardless of which unit you use they should all be able to take you beyond what the install can get you. This is not saying a great install is not warrented because a great install will get you close. But a great install will not be able to put the image directly in front of you. Insted it will have a great center image but like you have discovered the t/a ability takes it even further.
Like I said I used to think lots of bass then a set of comps that could scream loud enough to be able to hear them with the subs and all focus under the rear view mirror. Heck my current install has 3" mids and tweets in my pillars and they are aligned to hit the opposite side window just in front of where your ears would be so that I get a great center image. This works very good and if I had never heard a t/a'd car I would have been very very happy with this. Infact it still sounds very good without the t/a. But the t/a moves the stage in front of me and really really steps up the SQ of the system. I recently started to use a mic to dial in final t/a and phase of all drivers and WOW is all I can say. The impact has really improved thanks to t/a. Proper phase does a lot of it but again the t/a takes it further. It gets all speakers to reach you at the same time. Phase and level matching can not do this. Phase will reduce the possibility of cancelation issues, level matching will take care of axis and distance issues as they relate to decible levels, and t/a will get all sounds arriving at the same time and allow for image location correction/relocation.
Senior Member
Joined: 03-11-2012
Posts: 181
From: Western WI
Yea the 80prs is limited which is why I ended up switching my amps to Zapco DC Reference amps to pick up the extra channels of t/a. My point was about the use of t/a. Pioneer does make a big brother to the 80prs in the form of the P99rs that has the extra 2 channels but it is friggen over a grand. I paid less for my amps and this hu combined lol.
Regardless of which unit you use they should all be able to take you beyond what the install can get you. This is not saying a great install is not warrented because a great install will get you close. But a great install will not be able to put the image directly in front of you. Insted it will have a great center image but like you have discovered the t/a ability takes it even further.
Like I said I used to think lots of bass then a set of comps that could scream loud enough to be able to hear them with the subs and all focus under the rear view mirror. Heck my current install has 3" mids and tweets in my pillars and they are aligned to hit the opposite side window just in front of where your ears would be so that I get a great center image. This works very good and if I had never heard a t/a'd car I would have been very very happy with this. Infact it still sounds very good without the t/a. But the t/a moves the stage in front of me and really really steps up the SQ of the system. I recently started to use a mic to dial in final t/a and phase of all drivers and WOW is all I can say. The impact has really improved thanks to t/a. Proper phase does a lot of it but again the t/a takes it further. It gets all speakers to reach you at the same time. Phase and level matching can not do this. Phase will reduce the possibility of cancelation issues, level matching will take care of axis and distance issues as they relate to decible levels, and t/a will get all sounds arriving at the same time and allow for image location correction/relocation.
Regardless of which unit you use they should all be able to take you beyond what the install can get you. This is not saying a great install is not warrented because a great install will get you close. But a great install will not be able to put the image directly in front of you. Insted it will have a great center image but like you have discovered the t/a ability takes it even further.
Like I said I used to think lots of bass then a set of comps that could scream loud enough to be able to hear them with the subs and all focus under the rear view mirror. Heck my current install has 3" mids and tweets in my pillars and they are aligned to hit the opposite side window just in front of where your ears would be so that I get a great center image. This works very good and if I had never heard a t/a'd car I would have been very very happy with this. Infact it still sounds very good without the t/a. But the t/a moves the stage in front of me and really really steps up the SQ of the system. I recently started to use a mic to dial in final t/a and phase of all drivers and WOW is all I can say. The impact has really improved thanks to t/a. Proper phase does a lot of it but again the t/a takes it further. It gets all speakers to reach you at the same time. Phase and level matching can not do this. Phase will reduce the possibility of cancelation issues, level matching will take care of axis and distance issues as they relate to decible levels, and t/a will get all sounds arriving at the same time and allow for image location correction/relocation.
I understand the movement or placement that a good tune can do. I want that bass up front, and other then a Toyota truck I once had I was never able to do that in the past as well as I wanted from not using a tuner/processor.
I just came off another forum on politics when I replied last to you so sorry for sounding angry.
That is exactly what I use to do, major wattage subs in back and components up front. It is a failed system without a processor for the most part. I'm still working on what I will do physical placement wise.
So much to compute right now doing different projects but I will get my build thread started soon although sound system install will be one of the very last things I do. I figure first week of May I'll be done with audio as the power mods will take all my time and cash until then.
I'm still working ideas on audio.
If you can point me to a good place to buy a affordable HO alternator please do. The place I had mine ordered for a Stinger now tells me they can not make one for the hhr.
Senior Member
Joined: 10-06-2011
Posts: 1,150
From: Mesa, AZ
I am trying to avoid the HO alt. My amps possible (at the ohm loads they are wired at) RMS output is roughly 900 watts. With level matching going on I am sure I am not using all 900w and as of now I do not have any diming. I will be upgrading my single 8 to a single 10 and will either get 350 @ 4ohms or 500 @ 2ohms depending on which of two speakers I finally decide on. At that point I am certain that I will either hit that 900w mark or exceed it. I am seriously hoping that I will continue to have no dimming.
For you I would start with just 2 of the subs. But do so in a way that you can add the other two if you still find that you want more but I am seriously doubting that you will want more once you get it perfectly aligned with your midbass to get that upfront bass. I am guessing that your JL's are W6's so it could be a toss up on which ones to start with since both are very well regarded subs. If you had W7's I would say without a doubt start with them. But for me I have never really liked the JL's so the Alpines would probably be what I would start with.
I have this week started to use a mic to do fine tuning. I sit in the passanger seat with the mic mounted to where it is at the center of my ears in the drivers seat. I then use the DB meter of the REW rta software program. It sounds weird tuning from the passanger seat I must say. Sometimes the sound get lower to my ears but higher to the mic but then on the subs it sometimes gets louder and other times gets lower but still shows a similar DB level lol. But basically I can use this to make sure levels are matching from both sides. Then I can check phase of each speaker. Then on to t/a and recheck phase as I do the bass sections. I have not bothered to use the RTA part of it to tune for a flat response. It already seems to be pretty close to flat thanks to the HU's autotune. Between my laptop for tuning the amps and the HU's processor I have a ton of tweakable options. I use the mids amp to t/a them from their pillar location to be aligned with my door midbasses but use the HU's t/a for all the rest. I still want to play with the amps 10 band each parametric eq's. They along with the x-over points can be set to ANY number within ther range that you desire. For example I have my mids playing down to 225hz but had to type that number in to use it. I could very well type in say 226 or 227 and it would work too. Basically I have so much tuning options that it is actually very fun to go out and spend a couple hours tuning. And since the mic is doing the critical listening I do not have to worry about fatige lol.
GL with your install when you get it. I hope you can get the upfront bass. It is amzing when it happens. On certain songs I can feel my sternum vibrate and this is from a single 8" off of only 245w. I have had many systems with 15's and have had great impact and tons of vibration but this is the first to vibrate/rattle my sternum. And it was a very interesting feeling. I sat there feeling my chest and going what the F was that lol. Of coarse I do want a tad more but when I put my second one in I will have to turn the bass down a tad or the fronts up. I am expecting to get in between these two when I switch my sub to either a Morel Ultimo SC or a ScanSpeak Discovery 10. The box is built for the Morel so I may just go with that one even though that one will need the 500w to try to shine from what others say.
For you I would start with just 2 of the subs. But do so in a way that you can add the other two if you still find that you want more but I am seriously doubting that you will want more once you get it perfectly aligned with your midbass to get that upfront bass. I am guessing that your JL's are W6's so it could be a toss up on which ones to start with since both are very well regarded subs. If you had W7's I would say without a doubt start with them. But for me I have never really liked the JL's so the Alpines would probably be what I would start with.
I have this week started to use a mic to do fine tuning. I sit in the passanger seat with the mic mounted to where it is at the center of my ears in the drivers seat. I then use the DB meter of the REW rta software program. It sounds weird tuning from the passanger seat I must say. Sometimes the sound get lower to my ears but higher to the mic but then on the subs it sometimes gets louder and other times gets lower but still shows a similar DB level lol. But basically I can use this to make sure levels are matching from both sides. Then I can check phase of each speaker. Then on to t/a and recheck phase as I do the bass sections. I have not bothered to use the RTA part of it to tune for a flat response. It already seems to be pretty close to flat thanks to the HU's autotune. Between my laptop for tuning the amps and the HU's processor I have a ton of tweakable options. I use the mids amp to t/a them from their pillar location to be aligned with my door midbasses but use the HU's t/a for all the rest. I still want to play with the amps 10 band each parametric eq's. They along with the x-over points can be set to ANY number within ther range that you desire. For example I have my mids playing down to 225hz but had to type that number in to use it. I could very well type in say 226 or 227 and it would work too. Basically I have so much tuning options that it is actually very fun to go out and spend a couple hours tuning. And since the mic is doing the critical listening I do not have to worry about fatige lol.
GL with your install when you get it. I hope you can get the upfront bass. It is amzing when it happens. On certain songs I can feel my sternum vibrate and this is from a single 8" off of only 245w. I have had many systems with 15's and have had great impact and tons of vibration but this is the first to vibrate/rattle my sternum. And it was a very interesting feeling. I sat there feeling my chest and going what the F was that lol. Of coarse I do want a tad more but when I put my second one in I will have to turn the bass down a tad or the fronts up. I am expecting to get in between these two when I switch my sub to either a Morel Ultimo SC or a ScanSpeak Discovery 10. The box is built for the Morel so I may just go with that one even though that one will need the 500w to try to shine from what others say.
Senior Member
Joined: 10-06-2011
Posts: 1,150
From: Mesa, AZ
Senior Member
Joined: 03-11-2012
Posts: 181
From: Western WI
http://www.amazon.com/12W7AE-3-Audio...N%3DB001V6KQKQ
Now if you look at the one comment in the second review you'll see someone promoting FI and sundown. lol
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: 03-17-2012
Posts: 1,042
From: Bay Area, CA
BTW I LOVE HOW EMAIL NOTIFICATION STOPPED WORKING
Yep, I was told these are more slp. These are 1k in some stores, about 550 average.
http://www.amazon.com/12W7AE-3-Audio...N%3DB001V6KQKQ
Now if you look at the one comment in the second review you'll see someone promoting FI and sundown. lol
http://www.amazon.com/12W7AE-3-Audio...N%3DB001V6KQKQ
Now if you look at the one comment in the second review you'll see someone promoting FI and sundown. lol
Code:
I have spent the last nine months doing extensive research to figure out the one subwoofer that would give me the best quality boom for my buck. Hands down, this subwoofer
I looked up the 12w7 - $550 for 1000w rms? Excuse me if this seems rude, but only an idiot would pay that and I assume they don't know about other brands like Fi, sundown, DD, DC, IA, AB, AQ.
I have taken all of the cheap crunch subs back and have purchased one VVME sub, 700w rms, $55 shipped.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-CAR-AUDIO...e83dbc&vxp=mtr
Lot of good reviews on them so I am going to see how one sounds in my 1.75 f^3 32hz box and compare it to my $250 JL 12w3v3-4 (which was $250 new, 3 years ago yet people still think they are worth that much. $250 for a 500w rms sub? This is the only reason I do not like JL anymore.
If you want a true SQ or SQL sub, go with image dynamics, dayton audio, morel, focal, etc.
The un-deniable fact is simple: all these underground brands are competition grade. Built to last.
JL, kicker, alpine, pioneer, JVC, kenwood, etc - are NOT. They are consumer brands, who's companies make LOTS of other products. Sundown makes amps, subs, and 6.5" components. Not head units, not TV's, not surround sound, not computers, not video game systems.
Sure they might be enough, but if you want some real slap, avoid these brands.
As far as reviews on them, well, I've heard a $400 fully loaded (all options) Fi Q 10" sub in a 1.0 ported box and it was much louder than my JL 12w3 in the 1.75 ported box. and I was only giving it 800w rms (these take almost 2k with ease) He was selling it for $150 but it was not as loud as my 15" in the 4.0 ported box was, so I did not buy it.
I encourage you to try and listen to one in person. Even if it's a budget line (such as sundown E series)
Check out these audioque 12's for $120 each shipped. 600w rms (will handle more, if clean power)
http://www.soundqubed.com/Street-Dut...ofer_p_11.html
2 of those, total of 1200w rms (under rated) final ohm load of 1. 220 shipped to your door. Now, who still thinks that 12w7 at 1000w rms for $500+ is still a good deal?
Final thought: JL is over priced and it's over priced because it makes un-informed people think it's top quality.
Senior Member
Joined: 10-06-2011
Posts: 1,150
From: Mesa, AZ
I wish I had the pictures, but I was at a 09 san jose convention center auto show and I had pics of this scion or nissan cube which was green and it was an actual DJ car. had a mixer on a clear plastic mount that swivels out of the car and had 4 screens and a bunch of subs.
BTW I LOVE HOW EMAIL NOTIFICATION STOPPED WORKING
I don't see that promotion. Also, this was funny as hell to me:
Which is quite funny, considering a SSA XCON 1750w rms 15" is about $450 and almost TWICE the rated wattage and will handle easily 2k-2.5k.
I looked up the 12w7 - $550 for 1000w rms? Excuse me if this seems rude, but only an idiot would pay that and I assume they don't know about other brands like Fi, sundown, DD, DC, IA, AB, AQ.
I have taken all of the cheap crunch subs back and have purchased one VVME sub, 700w rms, $55 shipped.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-CAR-AUDIO...e83dbc&vxp=mtr
Lot of good reviews on them so I am going to see how one sounds in my 1.75 f^3 32hz box and compare it to my $250 JL 12w3v3-4 (which was $250 new, 3 years ago yet people still think they are worth that much. $250 for a 500w rms sub? This is the only reason I do not like JL anymore.
If you want a true SQ or SQL sub, go with image dynamics, dayton audio, morel, focal, etc.
The un-deniable fact is simple: all these underground brands are competition grade. Built to last.
JL, kicker, alpine, pioneer, JVC, kenwood, etc - are NOT. They are consumer brands, who's companies make LOTS of other products. Sundown makes amps, subs, and 6.5" components. Not head units, not TV's, not surround sound, not computers, not video game systems.
Sure they might be enough, but if you want some real slap, avoid these brands.
As far as reviews on them, well, I've heard a $400 fully loaded (all options) Fi Q 10" sub in a 1.0 ported box and it was much louder than my JL 12w3 in the 1.75 ported box. and I was only giving it 800w rms (these take almost 2k with ease) He was selling it for $150 but it was not as loud as my 15" in the 4.0 ported box was, so I did not buy it.
I encourage you to try and listen to one in person. Even if it's a budget line (such as sundown E series)
Check out these audioque 12's for $120 each shipped. 600w rms (will handle more, if clean power)
http://www.soundqubed.com/Street-Dut...ofer_p_11.html
2 of those, total of 1200w rms (under rated) final ohm load of 1. 220 shipped to your door. Now, who still thinks that 12w7 at 1000w rms for $500+ is still a good deal?
Final thought: JL is over priced and it's over priced because it makes un-informed people think it's top quality.
BTW I LOVE HOW EMAIL NOTIFICATION STOPPED WORKING
I don't see that promotion. Also, this was funny as hell to me:
Code:
I have spent the last nine months doing extensive research to figure out the one subwoofer that would give me the best quality boom for my buck. Hands down, this subwoofer
I looked up the 12w7 - $550 for 1000w rms? Excuse me if this seems rude, but only an idiot would pay that and I assume they don't know about other brands like Fi, sundown, DD, DC, IA, AB, AQ.
I have taken all of the cheap crunch subs back and have purchased one VVME sub, 700w rms, $55 shipped.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-CAR-AUDIO...e83dbc&vxp=mtr
Lot of good reviews on them so I am going to see how one sounds in my 1.75 f^3 32hz box and compare it to my $250 JL 12w3v3-4 (which was $250 new, 3 years ago yet people still think they are worth that much. $250 for a 500w rms sub? This is the only reason I do not like JL anymore.
If you want a true SQ or SQL sub, go with image dynamics, dayton audio, morel, focal, etc.
The un-deniable fact is simple: all these underground brands are competition grade. Built to last.
JL, kicker, alpine, pioneer, JVC, kenwood, etc - are NOT. They are consumer brands, who's companies make LOTS of other products. Sundown makes amps, subs, and 6.5" components. Not head units, not TV's, not surround sound, not computers, not video game systems.
Sure they might be enough, but if you want some real slap, avoid these brands.
As far as reviews on them, well, I've heard a $400 fully loaded (all options) Fi Q 10" sub in a 1.0 ported box and it was much louder than my JL 12w3 in the 1.75 ported box. and I was only giving it 800w rms (these take almost 2k with ease) He was selling it for $150 but it was not as loud as my 15" in the 4.0 ported box was, so I did not buy it.
I encourage you to try and listen to one in person. Even if it's a budget line (such as sundown E series)
Check out these audioque 12's for $120 each shipped. 600w rms (will handle more, if clean power)
http://www.soundqubed.com/Street-Dut...ofer_p_11.html
2 of those, total of 1200w rms (under rated) final ohm load of 1. 220 shipped to your door. Now, who still thinks that 12w7 at 1000w rms for $500+ is still a good deal?
Final thought: JL is over priced and it's over priced because it makes un-informed people think it's top quality.
JL builds quality products and they DO NOT built HU's tv's and the other things you listed. Yes their prices are higher then they should be but the w7 line is very very highly regarded.
Also the output difference between giving a sub 1000w and 2000 watts is only 3db's. While you can hear a difference of 3 db's it is not even close to double the sound. So spending more money to throw twice the wattage at your sub will not get you twice the volumn and in fact only nets you a very small increase in audible sound.
Try joining a site like DIYMobileAudio.com and you will learn a heck of a lot about systems. I mean I have seen what you say about various parts of your system and you sir have a **** TON to learn still.
GL in your audio endevors.
