HHR SS Topics and information on the 2008-2010 Chevy HHR SS Turbocharged models.

300 FWHP From an Automatic?

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Old 06-26-2009, 10:49 AM
  #11  
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Slicks are the killer. A good set of tires and a lot of power will kill the dif in the tranny. I have seen several GTP GP's lose the dif and parts were on the track right at the line.

I know some of the real serious guys were modding the GTP's to take a Cadillac tranny. They had to mod the pan to make them fit. they would take up to 450 Hp If I recall correctly.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:57 AM
  #12  
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You're right about the tires being key. Hahn's site has a good article about it.

Slicks or Street tires? What's best for driveline durability?


First, a bit of wisdom regarding slick use...the prevailing philosophy is that slicks are harder on driveline components than street tires. This is not necessarily true. Slicks, while they certainly can transmit more continuous torque to the driveline than street tires, do have one major benefit...they don't impart the torque 'spikes' that street tires can, and it's these 'spikes' that damage more axles and differentials/transaxles than many imagine. Where do these 'spikes' come from? Two conditions: 'spin and hook', and wheel hop.


Spin and Hook

In 'spin and hook', the street tires spin when power is applied, and can spin VERY hard. When they do suddenly hook up, the momentary torque transmitted can be many times the continuous torque potential. Where does all this momentary torque come from? We all know that energy can't be destroyed, it can only be converted. The kinetic energy of a wildly spinning driveline is amazing. It's all one big flywheel, and a very heavy one at that, when you add the weight of all that is spinning (wheels, tires, differential, axles, transmission shafts/gears).

Ever feel the 'surge' forward that occurs when the tires suddenly hook and stop spinning? That's the conversion of all that kinetic energy into movement. Now, another thing is also happening. Not only is the flywheel effect described above at play, but what else happens? The engine, along with its flywheel and clutch assembly, is suddenly decelerated massively, thus the RPM drop when the tires hook up. More energy we cannot destroy! So, now, not only does the driveline have to put up with the sudden flywheel effect of itself decelerating, its also getting yanked on through the other end (input) by all that energy of the sudden deceleration of the engine and flywheel/clutch. Add to this the weight of the vehicle being surged forward, and you can imagine how much momentary load is seen. Every item in your driveline has a torque limit, and if that limit is exceeded even momentarily, the damage can be instant.

Slicks typically won't allow these severe 'spin and hook' issues, and thus, can actually reduce the attendant strain on the driveline.


Wheel Hop

The other major culprit is wheel hop. Folks, do NOT ever allow wheel hop to occur. If you feel it beginning, lift off the throttle...NOW. Wheel hop is a smaller version of the phenomenon described above, but in a way, it's even worse...with every 'hop', the over-torque occurs. If there's ten 'hops' before it stops hopping, which can take but a couple seconds, that's ten death-blows to the driveline.

Slicks tend to eliminate wheel hop due to the 'resonance' of the floppier slick tire as compared to a stiff street tire. Taken another way, the slick acts as a shock absorber, stopping the wind-up and release of suspension that causes wheel-hop.


The Common Misperception

Back in the day when we were first turbocharging Neons, we regularly were told that the drivelines would NEVER hold up. We were told, "Why, my buddy with his 14 second Neon busts axles all the time! How could it ever hold up to double the power?"

Seems logical on the surface, sure! But what the fellow didn't know are the real reasons why his buddy was shredding axles. Yep...it was all about 'spin and hook' and wheel-hop.

We proceeded to run as fast as high 11's on stock axles with slicks before we needed to upgrade the axles. And get this...we ran high 9's on a stock transaxle-equipped (Quaife differential) drag Neon with 600HP, and did it repeatedly!

Further evidence is shown in the very fast Hot Rod (NHRA) or Pro 4-Cylinder (NDRA) classes of racing. Did you know that there are Hondas there that run in the eight-second zone on huge slicks with warmed-over STOCK 5-speed transaxles? Sure, they put in better diffs and axles, and don't get many passes off a stock-based trans, but they do it...all the time, with power in the 1000HP range.


FWD One-Wheel Burnouts

One other aspect that leads to early stock differential failure...one-wheel burnouts. Whatever you do, do NOT participate in this ruinous activity! I have been at the track and seen cars doing this so many times, and I cringe...why, sometimes I can even hear the spider and side gears HOWLING from 30 feet away while this is going on!

Why does this kill diffs? Bear in mind, the stock diff is designed to do one thing...enable the tires to turn at different speeds to allow you to turn left or right without binding. The speed difference between the axles under this intended use of the diff is, at worst, approaching 2:1...the diff gears barely even turn. What do you think those gears are doing when one wheel is going 60MPH and one is standing still in a one-wheel burn? These gears don't even have real bearings in them, for they should not need them...the lubrication problems alone from one-wheel burnouts can trash a diff faster than you can say 'Phantom Grip'!


What makes a stock differential stronger?

Does a product such as a Phantom Grip strengthen the differential? In straight ahead acceleration with both wheels hooked up, no. FWD vehicles have one inherent advantage over their RWD cousins with engines in the front of the car...natural engine torque reaction does not tend to reduce pressure on one wheel, encouraging the other to spin. Thus, a FWD car with slicks and a Phantom Grip is no durable than the same car with a stock diff. Slicks tend to ensure that both wheels stay hooked equally, so a stock diff on a car with slicks is not made stronger by the addition of that PG. However, a Quaife or PG is a real good idea on street tire cars that drag race, if only to discourage one wheel from taking off and spinning much harder than the other, whether in a burnout or on the track.

But there's something no trick diff can ever do, and that's change your driving habits. If it spins, LIFT. Get right back into it if you like, but never keep your foot mashed to the floor unless you like buying driveline components with money you could spend on other things.

-Bill Hahn Jr., copyright 2008
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:28 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by JB Toronto SS
You can get the Stage 1 (HIGHLY recommended) which gets you to 290 and add the K&N Cold Air Intake which gives you another 9.3HP for a total of 299.3. Not 300, but pretty darn close.
I'm not sure, but the K&N Kit may void your warranty as well. Unless you remove it before taking it in for sevice ;-)
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:00 PM
  #14  
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While I agree with the above 99% but slick can and will still damage as most street tires seldom hook up once they spin and with slicks there is little to no slip and it will expose a weak link. Often a street tire is like a fuseable link that will break away and release the excess power.

Also wheel hop is something that can happen with any tire. Most suspension can wheel hop since the drivetrain likes to roll up and once the tire releases it will pop the driveline back.

Even in the pro classes with the biggest slick around wheel hop is still an major issue.
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:13 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by hyperv6
While I agree with the above 99% but slick can and will still damage as most street tires seldom hook up once they spin and with slicks there is little to no slip and it will expose a weak link. Often a street tire is like a fuseable link that will break away and release the excess power.

Also wheel hop is something that can happen with any tire. Most suspension can wheel hop since the drivetrain likes to roll up and once the tire releases it will pop the driveline back.

Even in the pro classes with the biggest slick around wheel hop is still an major issue.
Agreed!
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:32 PM
  #16  
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Thanks guys...How much HP loss through the drivetrain on a front wheel drive SS...Say I have 300 at the crank....My Viper lost 12%, but was RWD...Thanks...Al
 
Old 06-26-2009, 01:40 PM
  #17  
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When I was considering a Cobalt SS I read the CSS forums.
I think I read wheel hop was a serious issue with the older CSS but the suspension has been modified since then to correct the WH issue.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Was/is wheel hop an issue with HHRs also?

WH seeks like about the best way to smash things all to pieces.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:45 PM
  #18  
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I've never noticed significant wheel hop. The wheels just spin but don't hop.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:48 PM
  #19  
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The article wasn't about HHRs, just a general info article.

I don't know if anyone has really gotten a HHR up to a HP where it would even be an issue.......................yet!
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GDZHHR
The article wasn't about HHRs, just a general info article.
Oh snap!
I totally missed that article
I have some reading to do, thanks.
Originally Posted by GDZHHR
I don't know if anyone has really gotten a HHR up to a HP where it would even be an issue.......................yet!
Coming from the DSM community I know we'll be breaking drivelines and bringing spare trannies, & axles to the races in no time.
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