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Old May 6, 2009 | 07:20 AM
  #21  
solman98's Avatar
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Originally Posted by mistermike
Putting food in our gas tanks is a really bad idea.
I would like so see the data to support that statement. Been proven wrong so many times.
Old May 6, 2009 | 07:22 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by 09 Panel

To make ethanol viable we need to improve the process which means taking a hard look at matching Brazil's method of production. Using a better raw material and using mini-refineries that burn the waste material from a previous batch as the fuel for the current batch.
That's the direction they are trying to go. The celuose will be using the waste materials. For both making and creating....
Old May 6, 2009 | 12:24 PM
  #23  
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There was an article in our local paper today, about the Obama's administration proposing new rules about the emissions for the ethanol production plants. This will curtail the use of ethanol and the farmers and lobbyist are screaming. However, I don't mind, as I have said previously, I don't have access to any stations that sell anything greater than E10 (ARCO stations).
Old May 6, 2009 | 08:27 PM
  #24  
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....and your forgetting ...it takes twice as much E to make the same power as gas..which mans your fuel bill will double( Another way to look at it, it will take 2 tanks of fuel to make the same trip as one).Yeah the farmers get the money..at inflated prices.we still wind up paying more no matter how you look at it,and its not meeting expectations.
Old May 7, 2009 | 06:01 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by IgottaWoody
....and your forgetting ...it takes twice as much E to make the same power as gas..which mans your fuel bill will double( Another way to look at it, it will take 2 tanks of fuel to make the same trip as one).Yeah the farmers get the money..at inflated prices.we still wind up paying more no matter how you look at it,and its not meeting expectations.
Since you only loose maybe 5 mpg in an HHR using E85, if that cuts your mileage in half, you need to go to the dealership. Cause you get a lot better than 10 MPG. I saw some E85 prices locally yesterday. $1.95 for E85 and 87 is about $2.05.

So, 30 MPG for 16 gallons, 480 miles. $32.80 for the 16 gallons.

And 25 MPG for 16 gallons, 400 miles. $31.20 for the 16 gallons.

DOE uses E85 exclusively and there mileage is maybe 1-2 mpg less than the same vehicle only using 87. I can drop that much just from going from one station to the next.
Old May 7, 2009 | 06:56 PM
  #26  
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Oh hell..I was think 100% alki..
Old May 8, 2009 | 07:13 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by solman98
I would like so see the data to support that statement. Been proven wrong so many times.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/30/news...anol/index.htm


That's just for starters. How about the food riots around the world when ethanol driven corn prices made eating unaffordable in the third world. Without government subsidy, corn based ethanol is an even more ridiculous means of powering cars. Personally, I don't want the government involved in anything other than national defence. Brazil does it right.
Old May 8, 2009 | 07:39 AM
  #28  
solman98's Avatar
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Originally Posted by mistermike
http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/30/news...anol/index.htm


That's just for starters. How about the food riots around the world when ethanol driven corn prices made eating unaffordable in the third world. Without government subsidy, corn based ethanol is an even more ridiculous means of powering cars. Personally, I don't want the government involved in anything other than national defence. Brazil does it right.
Been debunked several times. The "corn" the use is not the corn you eat. Most of the rise if food cost has been due to the rise in diesel costs. Truckers have to pay more to haul it, so you have to pay more to buy it.

According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, in 1995 US corn production stood at 7.2 billion bushels, or 192 million metric tonnes. An estimated 14.7 million tonnes were used to make ethanol, based on the Department of Energy ethanol production figures for 1995, and allowing for a conversion rate of 2.8 gallons per bushel. 4.9 million tons of dried distillers grains, based on a 33 percent conversion rate, would have been returned from ethanol producers to the grain markets. This left 182 million tonnes available for US consumption and export.

In 2007, US corn production rose to 13.1 billion bushels, or 349 million tonnes. An estimated 62 million tonnes were used to produce ethanol, based on DOE ethanol production figures and a conversion rate of 2.8 gallons per bushel. 21 million tons of dried distillers grains, based on a 33 percent conversion rate, would have been returned from ethanol producers to the grain markets. This left 308 million tonnes available for US consumption and export.

The total production of corn available for domestic, non-ethanol consumption and/or export, increased 126 million metric tonnes from 1995 to 2007. Ethanol consumption increased during this period by 31 million metric tonnes. Overall production increased by 82 percent, and overall non-ethanol production available for domestic consumption and export rose by 69 percent.

With US production increasing by 157 million tonnes, after 31 million net metric tonnes are subtracted for the change in ethanol consumption, and 25 million tonnes are subtracted for a 14 percent increase for other domestic uses and export (to keep pace with population change), the US produced 101 million metric tonnes more corn in 2007 than required for its 1995 pattern of domestic production, export, and for ethanol.

...

Eliminating all other factors, including the potential for increases in domestic production in the US and China and changes in corn demand from other sources, US grain reserves would be depleted by rising Chinese demand as soon as fall 2013, even if the entire US corn ethanol industry were eliminated overnight and all corn was made available for export to China to meet rising demand for livestock feed.
...
Comparing the rise in corn, oil, wheat and rice prices since 2000, using the World Resource Institute and DOE price tables, it can clearly be seen that corn prices, while escalating rapidly, are rising slower than any of the three other food and fuel commodities. In fact, the intensity of price increases is in inverse proportion to the conversion rate into ethanol. Corn, which is used the most among the four commodities as a biofuel, has the lowest price increase. Rice and crude oil, which are not used to make ethanol, have experienced the fastest price increases.
There is absolutely no way you can blame ethanol for the price of corn. Please remember these facts the next time you want to repeat the "conventional wisdom" of the mainstream media. Granted, once more ethanol plants started up, especially some of the celuose plants, oil priced dropped.... Wonder why.....

Corn planted area for all purposes is estimated at 87.3 million acres, down 7 percent from last year. Despite the decrease, corn planted acreage is the second highest since 1946, behind last year's total of 93.6 million acres. Growers expect to harvest 78.9 million acres for grain, down 9 percent from 2007. If realized, this would be the second highest since 1944, behind last year. Farmers increased corn plantings 1.31 million acres from their March intentions. Planting got off to a slow start across the Corn Belt, Ohio Valley, and the northern half of the Great Plains as frequent precipitation and cool temperatures during March and April prevented spring planting preparations. Corn planting was 27 percent complete on May 4, down 32 points from normal. Despite intermittent showers and below normal temperatures, producers were able to make rapid progress during May, particularly across the upper Midwest and northern Great Plains. Farmers reported that 97 percent of the intended corn acreage had been planted at the time of the survey interview compared with the average of 98 percent for the past 10 years.

Soybean planted area for 2008 is estimated at 74.5 million acres, up
17 percent from last year but 1 percent below the record high acreage in
2006. Area for harvest, at 72.1 million acres, is up 15 percent from 2007.
Compared with last year, planted acreage increases are expected in all
States, and the U.S. planted area for soybeans is the third largest on
record.
...
All wheat planted area is estimated at 63.5 million acres, up 5 percent from
2007. The 2008 winter wheat planted area, at 46.6 million acres, is
4 percent above last year....
Not stopping other crops either.....







The ethanol industry will continue to use more and more and more corn into the foreseeable future, yet the price of corn, along with the price of all other commodities, has fallen out. Does anyone still want to defend the now discredited notion that ethanol "is driving up the price of food"?

Or can we now agree that speculators were betting against the value of the dollar by investing in commodities as a hedge against inflation. Now that the Lehman Brothers and AIGs of the world have gone away, the price of corn is in a free-fall even though ethanol production is setting new records every month.

Want some more reading...
http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/MeatvsFuel.pdf

Is corn the answer here, by all means I can agree no. But's a start and it will get better.
Old May 8, 2009 | 04:47 PM
  #29  
IgottaWoody's Avatar
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True.. as a failure will open doors to other ideas..
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