Don't get me started on the hand outs or Vote the goverment is doing now. How could you ever expect a fair election when you have the goverment saying you want some money? It is sad the people we need that need to cut many of these entitlements can never get elected because they will cut the money to so many people already on the dole.

The Banks are in bed with the goverment now. It is a classic good cop bad cop game and people are buying it. Just look at who's campain they donate to.

As for Chrysler I really did not care but at least here in the mid west it did save a lot of jobs. It was a deal where saving it was the lesser of two evils. It was mostly saved for Jeep and the Trucks as the cars were not worth anything. Fiat was looking for an in again and this way they don't have to do it under the Fix It Again Tony lable.

While the GM bail out was not great the losses would have added up to more than the goverment paid. The goverment could bail them out and keep people working or they could not bail them out and let them go on unemployment and welfare. The Goverment knows in the rust belt that few companies will locate. THey know the union mentality here and will avoid it at all cost. Youngstown and Cleveland are classic examples of this. Columbus and southern Ohio have never had this union mentality and that is where companies like Honda and the like locate.

The Ford deal was fine when they did it but by the time GM got to the same point the loans were not there. Ford good luck was being in much poorer shape sooner to where these loans were available. But on the other hand they are now discounting many of their cars to keep the cash flow up. If they can not keep pace they can and will lose plants.

The reason they did bail out the auto industry for the most part is that it effects all parts of our economy. Steel, small shops, the many suppliers, plastic industry, etc. Even here all the small mom and pop places you speak of have gone under near the closed plants.

I am in not a fan of the present admin in anyway but they did what anyone in office would have to have done. The main thing the present admin did that they should not have done was give the UAW as large of a part. They are part of the problem and I see them still being the issue that hurts recovery.

This whole issue is something much larger than can be laid out in a post but it is very important to take it all in and in context. Being here on the front lines of the auto industry I see how it effect everything. It is something someone from elewhere just does not realize. We are paying for the sins of the past and while some here learn many fail and still blindly follow union leaders and fail to think on their own. I just saw that here recently with the new contract with Timken Bearing.

Our govenor is working on the right to work deal but I fear the unions will out spend him and prevent him from bringing companies back to the northern parts of the state.

I think we agree for the most part but I really feel we are in the third quarter and we are behind because we have too many players looking out for themselves and saying the hell with the team. I fear the next 10 years will not put us forward and we will become much like England.

 

On this you and I do not disagree on much and you understand the impact in your area more than I do.

Then again I know my industry (which is visual still and motion content for advertising and editorial). I and my wife run a small but good and prosperous company.

We actually bring money and business from overseas and use American workers and sources.

Anyway.

The people in our industry have been devastated in the last 3 years and I'm know their un and under employment numbers would equal what would have happened to the auto industry without the bail outs. The thing is as most of my industry is un recognized because they are self employed and don't count on the government role of employed/unemployed, or are eligible for a government loan. We just keep working harder, because we must.

Like most small business owners that reach any level of success, I work on the average 18 hour days for 6 days a week, 8 hours on Sunday to keep the wheels turning and get close to pre recession levels.

This is the road I chose and am willing to go forward and i don't regret or object to paying taxes.

That's part of citizenship and part of being on the team. The thing is 25% can't carry a winning team and according to our present administration I'm in that 5% to 10% that he wants to wage class warfare on.

The thing is like any business, what we bill is not what we keep and we take honest pleasure in paying good hard working people, always before we see a check.

What I object to is paying personal taxes that equal a Carrera S every year and am amazed when I realize my combined tax and tariff obligation is more than we actually take home. There is something wrong with that.

So as much as I would hate to see good, hard working people of any profession put out of work, I also know that no Union members are going to work 18 hour days without overtime fees, pay the percentage of tax I pay and refuse a government hand out, though it was government hand outs that kept their jobs.

Yes, your right any administration would have done the same, but I honestly don't see that much of a difference between the previous and present administration when it comes to how they spend money, how they waste money and what small regard that have for the American taxpayer.

I love history and know that our country was the shining light of the world, mostly because government did not get in the way of free choice and freedom to prosper. Now Government is a business, a very, very big business with one exception. It's the only business I know that treat their best customers with total disregard and demands by law that they use (or at least pay for) their services.

So my feeling is somehow it has to stop. We can't go on penalizing the 25% that keep it going to give to the 47% that contribute nothing.

I believe in the free market system and without government interference also believe that as painful as it would have been, the auto market would prevail and in the end we would have better vehicles, better workers, and a lot less tax/debt if the government had just backed off.

We talk about saving the American auto industry and I have a fondness for American cars, or at least I did. Lately the last three parts I've replaced on my chevrolets are stamped made in China. GM is not an American corporation it's a global corporation based in America. If it could have received a better bailout from Germany, England or China, they'd have taken it. I can promise you that.

I don't believe GM would have gone down under a structured legal bankruptcy and If they had, what's the difference between buying a Toyota made in America or a Chevrolet outsourced with Chinese parts?

And once again don't talk about corporate dollars coming back to the U.S. because multinationals have been parking money all over the world and as I stated as of today General Motors is given a pass on any corporate income taxes anyway.

Even if the bailouts would have made the economy worse, why should any taxpayers earnings go to companies that put themselves in the position to fail? Few industries are offered that option and the the thing is the ones that ran smart, lean, business we're obliged to pay for the failure of others.

Would the out of work go on unemployment . . . Yes . . . but unemployment should not be a 4 year institution, so give them two years to retrain and then let nature take it's course, but in today's world no repitive manual labor job is worth $58 an hour, any more than Rick Wagoner deserved a 20 million dollar severance package.

As far as England. No we're not on that road, it's more like Greece whose problems come from 70% of their citizens not paying tax and massive government give aways to appease large voting blocks.

We're now only 20% away from that.

I believe we are better than that and I think the problem comes from dependency on Government, Federal, State and Local. Cut the handouts and people will find work, because work is better than starvation.

For the truly sick or indigent I'm all for help. But for able healthy people the solutions are there, it's just not easy and it's not without sacrifice.

I'm not without sympathy, but I am positive that our direction is 180 degrees away from success.

Sorry to get on a soap box.

IMO

BC

 

The reason GM did not go through the structured BK was they were not to the point of needed it till the gas prices spiked and killed new truck sales. They had just spent a lot of money on the new trucks and just at the time they needed the cash flow from them they just did not see it come in.

GM's issues were they were so large and set in their ways that they have been in decline since 1960. It was not a great fail but a little over a long time adds up.

Once they did fail there was no money that anyone would loan to them in the same way as Ford. Many people even in goverment tried to make it happen but it just was not there.

I wish the Bush admin would have given them the full bail out as the unions would have not been give so much control. This part of the Obama pay back to the Unions will come back to haunt the industry.

The Fear now is if sales drop in a large drop Ford will fail and there will not be any more bail outs. If that happens I would expect Ford to be sold to someone in China. That is worst case not something I would expect this year or next year but it is a threat that could happen down the road.

The issues at all three automakers were very similar and they all had a series of fails.

As of the class warfair this makes me mad. I work for a private company and the man who owns it is very much in the evil 1 percent. But he also provides a large number of us a very good living and supports the small city we are in with our local taxes. He put much of his income back into the company and we are growing at a rate few companies are seeing today. We also sell product world wide and bring in a lot of money from overseas.

If we had to deal with unions we would not see anything more than we have. If anything we would have less people to do the work as they would freeze hires. We also would not see anymore benifits as we already have great packages.

We do have one great issue. Even in this down economy we can not hire people that one will show up everyday, two that can pass a drug test or even a back ground check. We need workers and have a hard time finding quality workers. With the work we do we can afford people drunk or on drugs and we need people in many area that have a clean past since our security is sensitive for the protection of our customers.

We are even in a place where we have bailed out many of our suppliers because we are able to.

The fact is in a capitalistic society there are winners and loser. It is up the person to make their own way. My first day in economics in school the teacher stated there has to be rich people, middle class and poor to make capitalisam work. Where you end up is mostly up to the person involved. No one puts you anywhere only you put yourself there. It also is makes a difference on the choices you make. I am sad to say few people make good choices anymore and they expect the rest of us to pay for their mistakes.

I have done well but that is not to say I have not hit a few bumps along the way. I went to one company and got laid off a month later. I could have sat around feeling sorry for myself but I didn't. I applied to many jobs and was offered most. I chose the one I am in now and it has paid off. I am not bitter over getting laid off as that company went to Mexico after years of threats. The company I am at is more than I ever expected.

I see the automakers at some point getting free. They will pay down the debt and I expect they will be forgiven parts of the loans. They were just lucky they were in a place they touched so many lives that they had to be bailed out. GM is in a place today that they are not doing the many things wrong and now they are also in a place where they have money to not have to short cut cars to production. The new product is showing this. The fact is the complete new product has yet to be seen. The new ATS will show what they can do. GM has the best engineers and designers and they have now been set lose to do things they can do where in the past they were shackled.

I think the new Gm will suprise many as time goes on. The next 10-20 years will be tough on most automakers. We will see more of them fall by the wayside in the future. Only the largest will make it alone. Even companies like BMW and Honda will need dance partners to develope new technologies as they just don't have the money to do it alone.

 

All I know is we live in a much different world than even 15 years ago.

The kids I hire are smart, react quickly, but have much higher expectations that I did at there age.

They will not drive an American car, they lease BMW's and Audi's.

They think a $12 designer hamburger is eating on the cheap and mostly they expect an excellent life, whether it comes from work, or family money or the government.

If they're not born into money, they marry into it.

I think that's the problem. They feel entitled and it's one of the reason they will vote for the current administration, who will promise them anything.

Maybe your right, we will turn into England or Greece. I'd prefer England because at least their economy is stronger than ours.

 

I find many kid computer smart but lacking common sense and are morally and ethically bankrupt.

Many want to all be millionairs but few want to work or put in the time and effort. THey want to come out of 4 years of school and see 6 figures.

You are correct they feel it is entitlement society and will vote for anyone who will give them the money.

But it is sad when we start people out at work at a higher than normal scale and they can't show up everyday and they way to often fail a wizz quiz that they know is coming.

I think you can sum up many in this country as smart but lacking wisdom and often flat lazy.

In the past most generations knew what it was like to do without. The children of the depression appreciated and worked for what they had as they knew what it was like to not have anything.

I think we have gone way too long with out sacrifice.

I am so sick of people making villans out of those who honestly have made a fortune with hard work and wise thinking. If someone make a million honestly more power to them. It is time to dump these MTV faux Hero's.

 

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

I will second the motion....still can not figure out what toyota is doing in nascar???? S c

 

You can't figure it out?? They ponied up the money (multi millions of dollars) and NASCAR took it.

 

At least those Audi's and BMWs have a history.

I knew a young man who complained and complained about the price of gasoline then drove half way across town (Grand Rapids, MI) to get his favorite cup of Starbucks at $6.00,

Boydie

 

I'll just mention this is an old thread with old news which, at this time, is inaccurate. As of about a week ago, Toyota took over the number 1 spot again.....which is essentially what I was worried about in my first post (Jan. of '12.) of this thread.

It's to bad because I would like to see, among other things, GM maintain that position.