Hydrogen
07-04-2008, 06:05 PM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-09-2008
Location: Elko Nevada
Posts: 725
well first off i dont really take being insulted lightly, however I understand that I didnt fully explain, this is in no way a water only system. This is a hydrogen injection. Pretty much what it is a container with some metal plates or tubes that you hook up the battery, fill with water, cap the container with a lid that has a tube that runs to your intake. these guys I was talking to were freinds not just anybody so I do trust them. They have ran their system for about 4000 miles and have had increased mileage.
07-05-2008, 10:11 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: 08-06-2007
Location: Edison, NJ
Posts: 359
Hydrogen is absolutely wonderful as a fuel. The supply will never deplete. The problems are: producing it, distributing it, and storing it on board vehicles in quantities that make it practical.
It may surprise you to know that a liquid gallon of gasoline has more hydrogen in it than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. Don't tell me I am full of it - I am not.
The prevalent method of producing hydrogen is methane reformation. Take natural gas (mostly methane - CH4) and mix it under high pressure with superheated water (H2O). CH4 + H2O = H2 +CO2. You get carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas) and hydrogen.
Now ask yourself what kind of energy it takes to accomplish this chemical reaction. The answer is: lots - lots of energy derived from fossil fuels.
To store enough hydrogen aboard a vehicle to go an average of 300 miles would require a high-pressure storage vessel that would be so heavy as to nullify and fuel efficiency. Liquid hydrogen regasification is no solution because of what I mentioned above - the energy density of liquid hydrogen is nowhere near that of gasoline. You'd need a darn big insulated tank.
And then - finally - hydrogen explodes if you look at it cross-eyed.
These are all problems which will eventually be solved. But the commitment of capital will be incredibly huge and it will take decades before a payoiff is realized.
Pissy little amounts of hydrogen produced via electrolysis on board a vehicle by sticking electrodes in a water tank will not save you anything in the long run.
It may surprise you to know that a liquid gallon of gasoline has more hydrogen in it than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. Don't tell me I am full of it - I am not.
The prevalent method of producing hydrogen is methane reformation. Take natural gas (mostly methane - CH4) and mix it under high pressure with superheated water (H2O). CH4 + H2O = H2 +CO2. You get carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas) and hydrogen.
Now ask yourself what kind of energy it takes to accomplish this chemical reaction. The answer is: lots - lots of energy derived from fossil fuels.
To store enough hydrogen aboard a vehicle to go an average of 300 miles would require a high-pressure storage vessel that would be so heavy as to nullify and fuel efficiency. Liquid hydrogen regasification is no solution because of what I mentioned above - the energy density of liquid hydrogen is nowhere near that of gasoline. You'd need a darn big insulated tank.
And then - finally - hydrogen explodes if you look at it cross-eyed.
These are all problems which will eventually be solved. But the commitment of capital will be incredibly huge and it will take decades before a payoiff is realized.
Pissy little amounts of hydrogen produced via electrolysis on board a vehicle by sticking electrodes in a water tank will not save you anything in the long run.
07-05-2008, 11:21 AM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-31-2008
Location: CLEVELAND
Posts: 772
well first off i dont really take being insulted lightly, however I understand that I didnt fully explain, this is in no way a water only system. This is a hydrogen injection. Pretty much what it is a container with some metal plates or tubes that you hook up the battery, fill with water, cap the container with a lid that has a tube that runs to your intake. these guys I was talking to were freinds not just anybody so I do trust them. They have ran their system for about 4000 miles and have had increased mileage.
Why don't you just buy hydrogen (natural gas and hydrogen) and inject it. That way you can use as much as you like, your engine is free of the energy production duties making hydrogen, and you can lean out your motor as far as you dare???
07-05-2008, 11:28 AM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-31-2008
Location: CLEVELAND
Posts: 772
Hydrogen is absolutely wonderful as a fuel. The supply will never deplete. The problems are: producing it, distributing it, and storing it on board vehicles in quantities that make it practical.
It may surprise you to know that a liquid gallon of gasoline has more hydrogen in it than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. Don't tell me I am full of it - I am not.
The prevalent method of producing hydrogen is methane reformation. Take natural gas (mostly methane - CH4) and mix it under high pressure with superheated water (H2O). CH4 + H2O = H2 +CO2. You get carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas) and hydrogen.
Now ask yourself what kind of energy it takes to accomplish this chemical reaction. The answer is: lots - lots of energy derived from fossil fuels.
To store enough hydrogen aboard a vehicle to go an average of 300 miles would require a high-pressure storage vessel that would be so heavy as to nullify and fuel efficiency. Liquid hydrogen regasification is no solution because of what I mentioned above - the energy density of liquid hydrogen is nowhere near that of gasoline. You'd need a darn big insulated tank.
And then - finally - hydrogen explodes if you look at it cross-eyed.
These are all problems which will eventually be solved. But the commitment of capital will be incredibly huge and it will take decades before a payoiff is realized.
Pissy little amounts of hydrogen produced via electrolysis on board a vehicle by sticking electrodes in a water tank will not save you anything in the long run.
It may surprise you to know that a liquid gallon of gasoline has more hydrogen in it than a gallon of liquid hydrogen. Don't tell me I am full of it - I am not.
The prevalent method of producing hydrogen is methane reformation. Take natural gas (mostly methane - CH4) and mix it under high pressure with superheated water (H2O). CH4 + H2O = H2 +CO2. You get carbon dioxide (a greenhouse gas) and hydrogen.
Now ask yourself what kind of energy it takes to accomplish this chemical reaction. The answer is: lots - lots of energy derived from fossil fuels.
To store enough hydrogen aboard a vehicle to go an average of 300 miles would require a high-pressure storage vessel that would be so heavy as to nullify and fuel efficiency. Liquid hydrogen regasification is no solution because of what I mentioned above - the energy density of liquid hydrogen is nowhere near that of gasoline. You'd need a darn big insulated tank.
And then - finally - hydrogen explodes if you look at it cross-eyed.
These are all problems which will eventually be solved. But the commitment of capital will be incredibly huge and it will take decades before a payoiff is realized.
Pissy little amounts of hydrogen produced via electrolysis on board a vehicle by sticking electrodes in a water tank will not save you anything in the long run.
One of my professor's was working with a $10,000,000 grant to find a way to bind large quantities of hydrogen in a solid. Then through some process, evolve the hydrogen on demand as a gas. Not an easy problem to solve?
07-05-2008, 11:34 AM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-31-2008
Location: CLEVELAND
Posts: 772
No, hot air injection does not work. The colder the air, with proper atomization of fuel, the more expansion you create when ignition happens. Therefore more power. Yes, you add more fuel with colder air but then you just end up reducing the throttle position because you are only wanting to produce the power you need for the driving you are doing at the time. Long story short, hot air will not help. I could write a book...... Yes, there is an issue of better fuel atomization at higher temperatures but then you need to use a supercharger or turbo to make up for the high temperature mixture low power potential. That takes power to run and has losses, no free lunch.
Also, tell ecl no free lunch. He needs to hear that badly.
07-05-2008, 11:37 AM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-31-2008
Location: CLEVELAND
Posts: 772
well first off i dont really take being insulted lightly, however I understand that I didnt fully explain, this is in no way a water only system. This is a hydrogen injection. Pretty much what it is a container with some metal plates or tubes that you hook up the battery, fill with water, cap the container with a lid that has a tube that runs to your intake. these guys I was talking to were freinds not just anybody so I do trust them. They have ran their system for about 4000 miles and have had increased mileage.
07-05-2008, 01:34 PM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 03-09-2008
Location: Elko Nevada
Posts: 725
This system doesnt cost a whole lot just a container to hold the rods and water, that is then connected to the battery wich provides the power for the electrolisis. Im not holding or storing the hydrogen for long periods, its more like funneling it to the intake from the tank that holds the water. The main source of fuel is still gasoline, the hydrogen is just an additive and yes it does improve fuel mileage. These guys are family friends that we have known for years thats why I trust them, as for qualifications im not sure other than they know how to calculate their own fuel mileage, as im sure you do to, and have gotten better since adding this. I am in no way substituing or suggesting to run cars on pure water/hydrogen just a little additive to up mpgs. Im also not going to run this on the HHR until I see what the long term affect is and the warranty has expired im not that stupid, I will be running it on a 1990 Ford Bronco II and a 1986 Ford Ranger. Im doing my test and if it all fails so what im out 30 bucks max, so I figure why not try? My question is why is every one so negative about this? Have you done it or no any one that has? Whats wrong with a few test on an older vehicle with a system that others have used and have had good results?
07-05-2008, 05:29 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: 03-31-2008
Location: CLEVELAND
Posts: 772
This system doesnt cost a whole lot just a container to hold the rods and water, that is then connected to the battery wich provides the power for the electrolisis. Im not holding or storing the hydrogen for long periods, its more like funneling it to the intake from the tank that holds the water. The main source of fuel is still gasoline, the hydrogen is just an additive and yes it does improve fuel mileage. These guys are family friends that we have known for years thats why I trust them, as for qualifications im not sure other than they know how to calculate their own fuel mileage, as im sure you do to, and have gotten better since adding this. I am in no way substituing or suggesting to run cars on pure water/hydrogen just a little additive to up mpgs. Im also not going to run this on the HHR until I see what the long term affect is and the warranty has expired im not that stupid, I will be running it on a 1990 Ford Bronco II and a 1986 Ford Ranger. Im doing my test and if it all fails so what im out 30 bucks max, so I figure why not try? My question is why is every one so negative about this? Have you done it or no any one that has? Whats wrong with a few test on an older vehicle with a system that others have used and have had good results?
BTW, if you are wrong, then all you have lost is $30, but you will have gained some knowledge
07-05-2008, 10:25 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: 09-13-2006
Location: USA
Posts: 378
Dude....please stop the madness. Please stop the hype. This stuff is crap.
No we don't want more propoganda...
Ok..lets try a different approach.
Those "couple of guys" you were talking to are idiots. Not in the "yo mamma" sence of idiot, but UNEDUCATED. You and your Dad are also. I am uneducated about many many many things, However this is not one of them.
So help me help you....no help me help us ALL.
STOP THE MADNESS.
No we don't want more propoganda...
Ok..lets try a different approach.
Those "couple of guys" you were talking to are idiots. Not in the "yo mamma" sence of idiot, but UNEDUCATED. You and your Dad are also. I am uneducated about many many many things, However this is not one of them.
So help me help you....no help me help us ALL.
STOP THE MADNESS.
the one i want to here about is the 50 plus year old guy that figured out how to get more than a 150 mpg out of a 60s ford mustang... he was on GMA last week. taking his beater to have it privitly and federally tested... GMA said that they would announce the results.
or the kid (19) that started a buisness converting hummers to get over 20 mpg... that was a tv intervue a few weeks ago... course is cost about $30k but i guess you insist on humming and want more than 11mpg to pay
so we ll keep help you by keeping you up to date with the news