Warped rotors issue - NEED HELP ASAP
06-09-2010, 03:39 PM
#12
Founding Member
Join Date: 11-23-2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,210
I had a GM rep tell me not to cover brakes/rotors after 24K and I told him when I see that in writing I will be glad to do that. He could never produce anything that states the brakes are only 24K covered.
06-09-2010, 04:23 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
If you note GM even now is pointing out the so called warp issue is not warp.
Rotors should be refinished NOT replaced for Customer Pulsation concerns. This condition is a result of rotor thickness variation, usually caused by LRO (wear induced over time and miles) or corrosion (Lot Rot).
Like stated by every major brake MFG they are now pointing to the LRO as the issue and not the so called warp.
Note the part about 0.002 run out on the hub this is what causes LRO.
Also don't forget if you get the brake pulse issue you also may have embedded material in the rotor. This is due to no bedding or seating of the pads. It can happen in lower mileage cases.
To fix your issues make sure the dealer checks the hub run out and if it is over 0.002 the hub needs looked at or may need replaced. Otherwise the pulse will comeback.
Also go with a quality pad weather it is Bendix, EBC or any other good name brand. Then learn how to seat them properly other wise you will have issue. One hot stop in the first few hundred miles can make it come back if they are not seated proplerly.
Just go with a good name brand rotor and there is no need for dimples, slots or holes unless you like the look. They are cosmetic only and will not improve you brakes. A solid stock rotor is as good as anything you will buy and will save you a lot of money.
I used to have brake issues with my Sonoma and SSEI, once I learned the truth on what is going on I have never had a repeat of this issue.
The reason many have repeated issues are they treat the symptom and not the cause. A clean up on the rotor fixes the issue for a short time but then LRO or embeded material will return is you don't fix the hub or seat the brakes.
Many mechanics get away with this since they seldom get blaimed 10,000 miles later for not seating the brakes for the customer or checking the hub.
Read MGR's TSB close as this is the answer that will solve many peoples issues. They just left the Bedding part out of this.
Rotors should be refinished NOT replaced for Customer Pulsation concerns. This condition is a result of rotor thickness variation, usually caused by LRO (wear induced over time and miles) or corrosion (Lot Rot).
Like stated by every major brake MFG they are now pointing to the LRO as the issue and not the so called warp.
Note the part about 0.002 run out on the hub this is what causes LRO.
Also don't forget if you get the brake pulse issue you also may have embedded material in the rotor. This is due to no bedding or seating of the pads. It can happen in lower mileage cases.
To fix your issues make sure the dealer checks the hub run out and if it is over 0.002 the hub needs looked at or may need replaced. Otherwise the pulse will comeback.
Also go with a quality pad weather it is Bendix, EBC or any other good name brand. Then learn how to seat them properly other wise you will have issue. One hot stop in the first few hundred miles can make it come back if they are not seated proplerly.
Just go with a good name brand rotor and there is no need for dimples, slots or holes unless you like the look. They are cosmetic only and will not improve you brakes. A solid stock rotor is as good as anything you will buy and will save you a lot of money.
I used to have brake issues with my Sonoma and SSEI, once I learned the truth on what is going on I have never had a repeat of this issue.
The reason many have repeated issues are they treat the symptom and not the cause. A clean up on the rotor fixes the issue for a short time but then LRO or embeded material will return is you don't fix the hub or seat the brakes.
Many mechanics get away with this since they seldom get blaimed 10,000 miles later for not seating the brakes for the customer or checking the hub.
Read MGR's TSB close as this is the answer that will solve many peoples issues. They just left the Bedding part out of this.
06-09-2010, 04:55 PM
#14
Platinum Member
Join Date: 05-09-2006
Location: "Upland" Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 6,805
Hyper......
You probably are not going to convince people of the "run-out" problem. I spoke of this problem and provided the TSB, noting the necessity to check run out, over 2 years ago. People still complained, after dealer servicing, about reoccurring "shutter" problems in a couple of thousand miles. Many tech.'s at the dealers were not/are not performing the run-out check (as evidenced by a form that is necessary to supply the correct distortion).....probably due to time constraints on the tech (time/money thing) A copy could easily be supplied to the customer, but never is.
Anyway good luck.....you are more persistent than me.
You probably are not going to convince people of the "run-out" problem. I spoke of this problem and provided the TSB, noting the necessity to check run out, over 2 years ago. People still complained, after dealer servicing, about reoccurring "shutter" problems in a couple of thousand miles. Many tech.'s at the dealers were not/are not performing the run-out check (as evidenced by a form that is necessary to supply the correct distortion).....probably due to time constraints on the tech (time/money thing) A copy could easily be supplied to the customer, but never is.
Anyway good luck.....you are more persistent than me.
06-09-2010, 06:20 PM
#15
Founding Member
Join Date: 11-23-2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,210
I stuck this bulletin in the Brake Forum. If you only have 3mm of pad left, then you are probably 5K to 7K miles away from needing a brake job, depending on how you drive.
06-09-2010, 06:29 PM
#16
Founding Member
Join Date: 11-23-2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 8,210
I have tried to get my Service Advisors to not use WARPED when talking about rotors, but it's just not going to happen. I guess it's like I still call a refridgerator the Ice Box.
Old habits are hard to break...or in this thread brake.
Here is a good web site which also explains what you and hyperv6 are trying to say. I doubt it helps, but here it is.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
Old habits are hard to break...or in this thread brake.
Here is a good web site which also explains what you and hyperv6 are trying to say. I doubt it helps, but here it is.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
06-09-2010, 08:44 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
I have tried to get my Service Advisors to not use WARPED when talking about rotors, but it's just not going to happen. I guess it's like I still call a refridgerator the Ice Box.
Old habits are hard to break...or in this thread brake.
Here is a good web site which also explains what you and hyperv6 are trying to say. I doubt it helps, but here it is.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
Old habits are hard to break...or in this thread brake.
Here is a good web site which also explains what you and hyperv6 are trying to say. I doubt it helps, but here it is.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
It amazes me how so many do not learn or want to learn what is really going on and then complain they still have the same issue.
I agree it is a shame when the dealer staff is using the term warp. It just make their product look worse than it really is.
06-09-2010, 08:50 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-05-2008
Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 5,464
Hyper......
You probably are not going to convince people of the "run-out" problem. I spoke of this problem and provided the TSB, noting the necessity to check run out, over 2 years ago. People still complained, after dealer servicing, about reoccurring "shutter" problems in a couple of thousand miles. Many tech.'s at the dealers were not/are not performing the run-out check (as evidenced by a form that is necessary to supply the correct distortion).....probably due to time constraints on the tech (time/money thing) A copy could easily be supplied to the customer, but never is.
Anyway good luck.....you are more persistent than me.
You probably are not going to convince people of the "run-out" problem. I spoke of this problem and provided the TSB, noting the necessity to check run out, over 2 years ago. People still complained, after dealer servicing, about reoccurring "shutter" problems in a couple of thousand miles. Many tech.'s at the dealers were not/are not performing the run-out check (as evidenced by a form that is necessary to supply the correct distortion).....probably due to time constraints on the tech (time/money thing) A copy could easily be supplied to the customer, but never is.
Anyway good luck.....you are more persistent than me.
Shops should also better instruct people how to drive their brakes in the early miles and they should do the bedding in. The shop I used to work in we used to seat them in and tell them to cool it for the first week of driving.
Too often someone with new brakes hammers them on a off ramp gets them really hot and stands on the pedal at the light. The material if hot enough embeds or adheres to the rotor in one spot and pulsed like hell. If the pads had the material bedded in on the entire rotor it would be a non issue.
Many pads like EBC, Bendix and others offer a coating on them that helps clean up the rotors and also helps seat them in. It takes about a week to wear off but it makes the job easier. When looking for pads see if this is an option on the ones you buy.
06-10-2010, 07:27 AM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-17-2006
Location: Dallas, GA
Posts: 6,050
If you note GM even now is pointing out the so called warp issue is not warp.
Rotors should be refinished NOT replaced for Customer Pulsation concerns. This condition is a result of rotor thickness variation, usually caused by LRO (wear induced over time and miles) or corrosion (Lot Rot).
Rotors should be refinished NOT replaced for Customer Pulsation concerns. This condition is a result of rotor thickness variation, usually caused by LRO (wear induced over time and miles) or corrosion (Lot Rot).
From that link above
In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.
Warping is often caused by excessive heat. When the disc's friction area is at a substantially higher temperature than the inner portion (hat) the thermal expansion of the friction area is greater than the inner portion and warping occurs. This can be minimized by using "floating" rotors which decouple the friction area from the inner portion and allow thermal expansion to occur at different rates. Primary causes of overheating include undersized or excessively machined brake discs, excessive braking (racing, descending hills/mountains), "riding" the brakes, or a "stuck" brake pad (pad contacts the disc at all times).
Do I trust bendix? Personally, they make some of the worst pads in the world IMO. I swapped those noisy, dust loaded POS after only 10K miles on my truck. When I contacted Bendix on the issue, no help. Never again. But that my personal take. Do I trust dealerships? In general, no. Again, just from personal experiance. But my personal experience covers over 8,100 vehicles in my state. Of which I average about 1,100 I replace each year. SO I deal with a lot of warranty work. I currently have 8, 2008 police Impala's (yes, spec'ed out police sedans) that are in the shop for melted wiring harness and relays for the cooling system. Yes, melted. When I asked why this happened, was told this was due to excessive ideling. Hello, it's a cop car. No help from the dealership, I now have a copy of the bulletin that shows GM knows of this issue. But yet, refuses to cover these items. We are dealing with GM direct right now on this issue. I can go on and on with stuff like this.
I do trust the words of wisdom from ChevyMgr. He has indeed shed some light on a lot of items dealing with the HHR. But reading posts here, I do see a play on words here. Most aimed to point blame at the driver. Granted, in some cases it is indeed true, but not all. The end results are still the same, lower quality parts are being used. They are failing. People are in more of hurry and don't take care of cars like they should. The combination of the two, results in unhappy customers.
Maybe we can just agree to disagree. I read extremely similiar results from run out and warped. I see a lot of playing on words from vendors. I see this daily also. In this economy, I see a lot of vendors refusing items that in the past would have probably been warranty, or even a good faith repair. Rare these days. My problem is, I was ASC certified (current job does not require that), I've taken the NAPA courses and the TMI Precision Truck courses and had the pleasure of selling auto parts. I deal with the crap daily. It gets "interesting" at times.....
It's that time of year when my desk looks like this going through the cert's for new vehciles.
Sorry, but I'll call this issue like I see it. I'm done here...
06-10-2010, 09:22 AM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: 01-10-2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 681
Ok, I'm going to assume I have LRO problems, and I will have the rotors cut ON THE CAR. My local Firestone has this kind of lathe, charges about $100.
However, I feel this is treating the symptom, not the disease. If in fact the HUB is the cause of the problem, what is the fix? Just replace it? Have it balanced and machined? I'd like to get to the bottom of this problem once and for all.
It seems as Solman said, to be a lot of denial, no one takes responsability, and everything is because of the driver, but again, the bottom line, is I've driven dozens of cars with disc brakes, and have only had this problem with a 2006 Chevy Impala, and my 2009 Chevy HHR. No other problems ever with brakes in almost 35 years.
However, I feel this is treating the symptom, not the disease. If in fact the HUB is the cause of the problem, what is the fix? Just replace it? Have it balanced and machined? I'd like to get to the bottom of this problem once and for all.
It seems as Solman said, to be a lot of denial, no one takes responsability, and everything is because of the driver, but again, the bottom line, is I've driven dozens of cars with disc brakes, and have only had this problem with a 2006 Chevy Impala, and my 2009 Chevy HHR. No other problems ever with brakes in almost 35 years.